otoko no ko -> trap

nonamethanks said:

Please read the wiki definition for trap before you post in this topic again, because you are obviously completely clueless as to its usage on this site.

I read that wiki, and it didn’t mention at all how 'trap' has a clearer or more effective meaning than 'otoko no ko'. Because some admiral shouting 'It’s a trap!' is unrelated to describing a male with a feminine appearance.

To make it easier to think, it would be good to list the advantages and disadvantages.

1, It's the most commonly used word. (Wikipedia article, Pixiv Wiki, Nico Nico Wiki, and in Manga, Anime, Doujinshi)
2, It literally means "a male who resembles a girl" linguistically.
3. It's connected to Pixiv hashtags, which are the common image source for Danbooru.
4. It's a value-neutral expression that doesn't carry specific expression, moods, or authorial intentions like 'trap' does.

sa2ko said:

1, It's the most commonly used word. (Wikipedia article, Pixiv Wiki, Nico Nico Wiki, and in Manga, Anime, Doujinshi)

I see you're conveniently ignoring every single english-speaking imageboard. forum #350595

I know it's crazy to chime in on page 13 of a discussion, but I do kind of agree with sa2ko here. I think trap is most recognizable and more commonly used, of course, but it does have a few connotations to it and an idea of what it's supposed to be that feels somewhat more... Specific in comparison to otoko no ko, which feels like a broader description of boys who look like girls. There are certain posts that I personally have tagged as otoko no ko that I would not have tagged as trap. I don't think the change back to trap is the end of the world, but it will affect how I use that tag in the future.

At this point, given staff's clear stance regarding otoko_no_ko, I feel like we should just revisit the debate between trap and femboy instead of trying to restore otoko_no_ko. Several years ago I would've been firmly on the side of trap since it was the most frequently used term, but it's gained so much inane baggage in recent years that—in my mind—it makes more sense to use femboy.

Ai-to-Yukai said:

At this point, given staff's clear stance regarding otoko_no_ko, I feel like we should just revisit the debate between trap and femboy instead of trying to restore otoko_no_ko. Several years ago I would've been firmly on the side of trap since it was the most frequently used term, but it's gained so much inane baggage in recent years that—in my mind—it makes more sense to use femboy.

I think it's best to wait to see how the current bur votes end. If more people vote onk over trap, then it might be worthwhile proposing femboy as an alternative, but right now I think it's best to let this be a standalone vote on the majority's acceptance of the usage of trap.

gunupmyskirt said:

I know it's crazy to chime in on page 13 of a discussion, but I do kind of agree with sa2ko here. I think trap is most recognizable and more commonly used, of course, but it does have a few connotations to it and an idea of what it's supposed to be that feels somewhat more... Specific in comparison to otoko no ko, which feels like a broader description of boys who look like girls. There are certain posts that I personally have tagged as otoko no ko that I would not have tagged as trap. I don't think the change back to trap is the end of the world, but it will affect how I use that tag in the future.

Which posts would you tag as otoko no ko and not trap?

gzb said:

Which posts would you tag as otoko no ko and not trap?

NTA but images like post #9479986. post #9479096 and post #9470688 which are all currently in the tag are not "traps". There's no tricking people into thinking that they're not male. Arguably they're miss-tagged and would be a better fit in the androgynous tag but that one isn't gender specific and also encompasses characters like kris (deltarune). Posts like post #9453050 and post #9422055 both fit into an "otokonoko" tag but only one of them is a trap.

wispydreamer said:

NTA but images like post #9479986. post #9479096 and post #9470688 which are all currently in the tag are not "traps". There's no tricking people into thinking that they're not male. Arguably they're miss-tagged and would be a better fit in the androgynous tag but that one isn't gender specific and also encompasses characters like kris (deltarune). Posts like post #9453050 and post #9422055 both fit into an "otokonoko" tag but only one of them is a trap.

First one and post #9422055 should not be tagged with this tag, no, and they went against its definition even when it was called otoko no ko. The tag is specifically for the trope of "draw a girl, call it a boy". All the more reasons why the previous name was bad.

nonamethanks said:

The tag is specifically for the trope of "draw a girl, call it a boy".

Sourcing our tags straight from tvtropes...

nonamethanks said:

First one and post #9422055 should not be tagged with this tag, no, and they went against its definition even when it was called otoko no ko. The tag is specifically for the trope of "draw a girl, call it a boy". All the more reasons why the previous name was bad.

If people who searched for the tag didn't want art like that in there then there would be much more contention over tagging it but I doubt there would be many times where that happened that wasn't some Bridget-tier shitfling. I would argue that it is very likely that images like post #9479986 are exactly what people searching for this tag are looking for.

That's not a trap, it has nothing feminine about it. This tag is specifically for characters that could pass as female if not for the fact that they have a dick. Tagging that as trap would be like tagging a single male character masturbating alone with yaoi.

nonamethanks said:

First one and post #9422055 should not be tagged with this tag, no, and they went against its definition even when it was called otoko no ko. The tag is specifically for the trope of "draw a girl, call it a boy". All the more reasons why the previous name was bad.

But... that's not what the tag was for 11 years. Why would you say that makes it a bad name for the tag when the previous name served a completely different purpose?

momoura-kun said:

But... that's not what the tag was for 11 years. Why would you say that makes it a bad name for the tag when the previous name served a completely different purpose?

I invite you to actually open the tag and look at the posts under it, and read the wiki:
> a male character who looks female

Does that character look female to you? Because to me they look androgynous at best.

All I'm getting from this conversation is that people have confused trap with girly boy because the previous name was dogshit. I usually only browse the porn of this, but i guess I'll have to garden out the safe posts.

nonamethanks said:

That's not a trap, it has nothing feminine about it. This tag is specifically for characters that could pass as female if not for the fact that they have a dick. Tagging that as trap would be like tagging a single male character masturbating alone with yaoi.

Yes exactly, it's not a trap but it is an otokonoko. Also he's certainly girlier then the average anime boy. There's not much difference between that image and post #8934314 in style and proportions other then one has slightly longer hair and is wearing an even more feminine outfit. They're both otokonokos but only one of them is a trap. And I simply don't think that they're different enough that someone searching for images like wouldn't want post #8934314 wouldn't want to see post #9479986. Note that I would be fine with a trap subtag to otokonoko and not just making it more difficult for people to search for the same fetish they've been searching for for years for no real gain. Especially when your argument is that changing the tag to trap would make it easier for people.

wispydreamer said:

Yes exactly, it's not a trap but it is an otokonoko. Also he's certainly girlier then the average anime boy. There's not much difference between that image and post #8934314 in style and proportions other then one has slightly longer hair and is wearing an even more feminine outfit. They're both otokonokos but only one of them is a trap. And I simply don't think that they're different enough that someone searching for images like wouldn't want post #8934314 wouldn't want to see post #9479986. Note that I would be fine with a trap subtag to otokonoko and not just making it more difficult for people to search for the same fetish they've been searching for for years for no real gain. Especially when your argument is that changing the tag to trap would make it easier for people.

Again, you are confusing trap with girly boy. One is for male characters that look like they could be women, the other is for feminine boys who are still identifiable as men. The distinction already exists in our tagging system. Don't mix them together, they're different fetishes and someone looking for one doesn't necessarily want to see the other.

It seems to me like you have confused onk for an umbrella tag, when it was actually only for one type of posts. It's an understandable mistake but one entirely caused by the stupid tag name, which didn't reflect what the tag was for. If you want an umbrella tag for traps and girly boys that's a different topic than what we're doing here. Look at the wiki definition for the latter, it's even explicitly mentioned that the two tags are not to be confused.

nonamethanks said:

Again, you are confusing trap with girly boy. One is for male characters that look like they could be women, the other is for feminine boys who are still identifiable as men. The distinction already exists in our tagging system. Don't mix them together, they're different fetishes and someone looking for one doesn't necessarily want to see the other.

It seems to me like you have confused onk for an umbrella tag, when it was actually only for one type of posts. It's an understandable mistake but one entirely caused by the stupid tag name, which didn't reflect what the tag was for. If you want an umbrella tag for traps and girly boys that's a different topic than what we're doing here.

The girly boy tag is for images and characters like post #8850482 who are feminine in personality but not androgynous in looks. Frankly I would argue that the name of the girly boy tag is quite bad but otokonoko's wasn't.

gzb said:

Which posts would you tag as otoko no ko and not trap?

post #9459130 and post #9459184 specifically came to mind. He is drawn in a very feminine way and fits the definition of not being able to tell from the thumbnail alone that he's male, but I don't know if this is necessarily a trap situation. I seldom upload posts featuring characters like this, so maybe I'm just not well-versed when it comes to traps and therefore have no dog in this fight.

post #9479986 is not a trap/onk, there's nothing feminine about that. It's just a guy in bondage gear, there's no long hair, no skirts, no makeup, no suggestion that they're trying to pass as female. It's just a mistag and should not have been tagged with it. It's completely different from post #8934314, which is obviously drawn to resemble a woman. I don't know how you can't see this, the difference is night and day. You might as well tag any random shota as onk if that qualifies.

I don't see how the example post post #2166718 for girly boy is clearly identifiable as a man? To me it looks slightly more like a girl than a guy.

edit: On the other example pictures there are clues that it is not a female on the picture (clothes, chest, shoulder, hairstyle), but not on this one

That post is definitely debatable, I would've tagged it as trap because it looks like a woman to me.