i'm extremely disappointed because this was such a needless change since trap was already aliased to otoko_no_ko and caused no issues whatsoever.
this was a divisive change for the sake of having one.
Posted under Tags
ryuran said:
this was a divisive change for the sake of having one.
i disagree pretty heavily with the route that's been taken here myself but i do have to note that it's not just change for change's sake. in short, the context is that this thread is a result of topic #31690 in which several failed attempts were made to come up with a new name for the reverse trap tag, a tag whose name had been left in a limbo state for years since the rename to otoko no ko, which in itself was a decision that had never been properly voted on.
CrossbowArcanePlus said:
- If someone votes yes to either trap or femboy there is no ambiguity about whether they want a change.
It's only unambiguous if they vote yes for both. If someone votes yes for one and anything else (or nothing) for the other, that indicates a preference of trap over femboy or vice versa, but gives no information about their stance on otoko no ko. This was explained (and repeated) by nonemouse, who preferred the tag stay as okoto no ko, but upvoted femboy because they'd rather it be changed to that than to trap.
That said, if we recognized the ambiguity of those votes, it would make the BURs completely useless since there would be no way to show absolute support for trap or femboy. The voting count would still be flawed, but in the opposite direction. I'll repeat what I said before: in this specific case, I think a dummy BUR to keep otoko no ko would've been beneficial just so we could get a clear idea of how many were against the change. Without it, it's like there's three viable presidential candidates, but only two choices on the ballot.
CallingAllPriests said:
Well, I'll hold off on actually doing anything until the ambiguity of the result is resolved, but if the tag remains, we should probably do some tag cleanup removing cosplayers from the tag and modifying them to be something else.
I strongly agree with this, but we should probably do this through a BUR. The tag is most likely going to remain as-is, so we may want to do this sooner than later. I'd also try to make a strong case for how it won't hurt searchability or filtering.
I think most of those could be replaced with crossdressing. It should be noted that a cosplay_photo crossdressing search won't filter out masculine-looking men, but there are so few posts it probably won't matter. The current count for cosplay_photo ~trap ~crossdressing is only 74 posts.
Who the hell uses the word "trap" in this context in 2025? In an image tagging site, I see "trap" and think of a trap. Like a bear trap or a mousetrap.
The concept being described here is a femboy. I missed the vote, but this name change is somehow even worse than "otoko no ko". At least that term doesn't leave any ambiguity.
EDIT: Okay, I'm realizing that there's not even a catchall tag for actual traps now. Do we need to make a disambiguating "trap_(trap)" tag? The direct conflict alone is evidence that this is an inherently flawed rename.
Updated by KalpacMuskoxen
KalpacMuskoxen said:
Who the hell uses the word "trap" in this context in 2025?
That's one reason why forum #350595 happened, to find this out.
For the sake of tag symmetry, and other sites, you CAN'T use a name like this. Just because it's vernacular doesn't mean it's not offensive.
Qualifying this topic as having "some" controversy, is an euphemism, but this is YOUR point of view, the point of view of someone who is not affected by this slur, because it's not just a little controversy for those who have to face hate.
Everything that should be said, is said here : https://fanlore.org/wiki/Trap_(glossary_term)
Danbooru was once acclaimed for its use of the otoko_no_ko tag instead of the usual trap tag. On this very site, admin @jxh2154 said this: https://danbooru.donmai.us/forum_topics/10521?page=1#forum_post_96719
If you care just even a bit about people, this tag should be reconsidered, as well as the reverse_trap one.
If we keep perpetuating words like this, of course they'll become vernacular. It is our duty to change how we talk, for the better of everyone.
I did some math.
I assumed that there are 3 options, F, T, O, and there is a fixed number of #V voters (#V is odd so no draws).
All the voters have a fixed preference in the form of F > T > O, and they are all honest about it.
When asked an "alias F -> T" question, they will answer it +1 or -1 according to their preferences.
I wanted to prove that if we ask "alias F -> T", "alias F -> O", "alias T -> O" questions, then the resulting digraph on these 3 options is a total ordering. (Based on the assumptions we can ask these questions in any order, or even simultaneously, the results won't change.) I thought that the result of the popular "preference voting" has this property. But I couldn't prove it. Now I think that this isn't even true: if we assume the assumptions above, it still can be the case that "alias F -> T", "alias T -> O" and "alias O -> F" both get accepted every time when asked, that is, the resulting digraph on these options is a cycle.
Anyone does want to try it and come up with numbers that would lead to such situation?
Walzy said:
For the sake of tag symmetry, and other sites, you CAN'T use a name like this. Just because it's vernacular doesn't mean it's not offensive.
Qualifying this topic as having "some" controversy, is an euphemism, but this is YOUR point of view, the point of view of someone who is not affected by this slur, because it's not just a little controversy for those who have to face hate.
Everything that should be said, is said here : https://fanlore.org/wiki/Trap_(glossary_term)
Danbooru was once acclaimed for its use of the otoko_no_ko tag instead of the usual trap tag. On this very site, admin @jxh2154 said this: https://danbooru.donmai.us/forum_topics/10521?page=1#forum_post_96719
If you care just even a bit about people, this tag should be reconsidered, as well as the reverse_trap one.
If we keep perpetuating words like this, of course they'll become vernacular. It is our duty to change how we talk, for the better of everyone.
Do you have a better argument than, "You’re a bad person if you don't change this tag"?
If we follow that logic, then tags like no way fag (meme) and dog nigga need to be renamed, because they use slurs in their names, and the words being used being offensive is more important than how they're being used.
KalpacMuskoxen said:
EDIT: Okay, I'm realizing that there's not even a catchall tag for actual traps now. Do we need to make a disambiguating "trap_(trap)" tag? The direct conflict alone is evidence that this is an inherently flawed rename.
The alias trap -> otoko_no_ko has existed ever since the tag was originally renamed, don't try to make it a problem now when it was never a problem for anyone before. Open a new topic to create a trap (object) tag if you want an umbrella tag.
tamuraakemi said:
I would argue that the difference is that an alternative existed here but not there
re: reverse trap, assuming a different outcome to this topic, a sane choice imo would have been to just have the tag name mirror whatever's chosen here. it would certainly match other reverse_* tags, like how reverse ryona is "ryona but it's done to a guy", reverse princess carry etc, and all attempts to come up with an original name had their own pitfalls and failed to communicate the concept in the same way that tacking on "reverse_" to the name would have done in a much simpler way.
but anyway, as you said that ship has since sailed, and the only way i see this overturned now is if evazion makes an executive decision.
KalpacMuskoxen said:
EDIT: Okay, I'm realizing that there's not even a catchall tag for actual traps now. Do we need to make a disambiguating "trap_(trap)" tag? The direct conflict alone is evidence that this is an inherently flawed rename.
nonamethanks said:
The alias trap -> otoko_no_ko has existed ever since the tag was originally renamed, don't try to make it a problem now when it was never a problem for anyone before. Open a new topic to create a trap (object) tag if you want an umbrella tag.
I think you forgot (probably did not know) we have a booby trap tag.
Blank_User said:
It's only unambiguous if they vote yes for both. If someone votes yes for one and anything else (or nothing) for the other, that indicates a preference of trap over femboy or vice versa, but gives no information about their stance on otoko no ko. This was explained (and repeated) by nonemouse, who preferred the tag stay as okoto no ko, but upvoted femboy because they'd rather it be changed to that than to trap.
I think if someone wants to keep otoko_no_ko - as nonemouse did - they should not be voting positive on a BUR that aims to change away from otoko_no_ko. I can see what you mean, and how someone could vote for otoko_no_ko -> femboy even though what they actually want is otoko_no_ko, but that's strategic voting rather than expressing their true preference, and they should take the good and bad of that voting strategy.
Blank_User said:
That said, if we recognized the ambiguity of those votes, it would make the BURs completely useless since there would be no way to show absolute support for trap or femboy. The voting count would still be flawed, but in the opposite direction. I'll repeat what I said before: in this specific case, I think a dummy BUR to keep otoko no ko would've been beneficial just so we could get a clear idea of how many were against the change. Without it, it's like there's three viable presidential candidates, but only two choices on the ballot.
I think it's different to three candidates and two choices. On a ballot you cannot express disapproval, but on a BUR you can. That allows for inferences about the incumbent option.
Anal_Analyst said:
So men are trap and women are reverse_trap? That's very sexist.
Just like when a women rapes a man it's reverse rape. It's not sexist it's our naming system and if this had gone differently I would have brought back up BUR #40489.
zetsubousensei said:
Just like when a women rapes a man it's reverse rape. It's not sexist it's our naming system and if this had gone differently I would have brought back up BUR #40489.
We killed that tag years ago btw.
Anal_Analyst said:
So men are trap and women are reverse_trap? That's very sexist.
This is somehow one of my least favorite points in this entire clusterfuck of a thread. What, are you next going to argue that the fact we have a male focus tag but not a female focus is misogyny?
Unbreakable said:
We killed that tag years ago btw.
Oh, well that's embarrassing. I never upload porn it's just the term I've heard for it. Ignoring my ineptitude reverse netorare, reverse harem,or as a male example reverse ryona. It's not sexist and adding "reverse" to the chosen tag always would have been the naming option I prefer.