otoko no ko -> trap

The bulk update request #40541 (forum #349526) has been approved by @nonamethanks.

I'm not happy about the outcome of this thread. Not just because I voted against BUR #40541 being approved, but how it was handled. I think evazion should be the only one who can approve or reject the BURs in this thread given how divided our opinions are on it, and what he said 11 years ago at forum #99446 (not sure if he has the same opinion today though).

nonamethanks said:

Well, we had a month to discuss this, and we ended up with nearly 4x people voting in favor of one or the other vs voting against, so there's not much else for me to do. Let the tarring and feathering commence.

Yknow BUR votes are public.... We can see the counts. Please be honest with your actions as admin.

I refrained from posting in this topic earlier because it's just silly and while I have opinions on both BURs the name of the tag doesn't matter that much to me and really shouldn't matter this much to anyone. However it would be wrong not to say something now. This is a pretty unprofessional and obviously biased handling of the topic. Danbooru is a collaborative archival effort. We can't let petty underhanded squabbling, dunks, and epic owns get in the way.

Evazion should seriously consider stepping up as owner and taking a look at how things are being done behind his back. Staying quiet on topics like these clearly isn't working.

FubukiKai said:

Yknow BUR votes are public.... We can see the counts.

Indeed we can. forum #350604, forum #351410. If you look at the votes it's pretty clear that most people were for moving the tag, and the disagreement was on where to move it to. I picked trap over femboy because:

• almost every other anime site uses trap
• femboy has IRL connotations
• more people voted for trap than femboy

otoko no ko was a stupid name nobody else uses. It never should've been the tag name.

I don't see a problem with the change; besides the above, it was already decided in a majority to not change reverse trap to an otoko no ko equivalent forum #349358 or to any other alternative to "trap". Since the majority voted to keep reverse trap, and the majority is on board with changing otoko no ko to something else, with a majority among that group voting for trap, there doesn't seem to be any decrepancy with the rename to trap being the outcome.

It is ultimately up to the admins, but I am also displeased by this decision and don't think it is justified by the votes, for the reasons I stated previously when this way of interpreting the votes was discussed a month ago:

nonemouse said:

I upvoted femboy because of the two proposed changes it is the better to me but if there was a no-op BUR I would upvote that too because I don't really care between the two of those imperfect options, but I think either is far superior to trap.

If that gets interpreted as "pro-rename so we should rename, and then trap is the most popular rename so use that" it is the exact opposite of my preference which is "I don't care whether we rename, but if we do it should not be to trap".

I think all the arguments for and against trap have been aired multiple times and no one's mind has been changed, so I'm not going to say anything else on the matter.

HyphenSam said:

I'm not happy about the outcome of this thread. Not just because I voted against BUR #40541 being approved, but how it was handled. I think evazion should be the only one who can approve or reject the BURs in this thread given how divided our opinions are on it, and what he said 11 years ago at forum #99446 (not sure if he has the same opinion today though).

Agreed on this too. This was a divisive enough topic that having the webmaster decidedly step in would quell any major resentment after. Even if it is coming in now and affirming NNT's decision to move it to the name chosen, just something would help.

Honestly thought this was going to need to be resolved by evazion. Can't wait for this to become "Bridget thread 5.0"

Here's a summary of the final results if anyone wants to argue about them:

nonemouse said:

I upvoted femboy because of the two proposed changes it is the better to me but if there was a no-op BUR I would upvote that too because I don't really care between the two of those imperfect options, but I think either is far superior to trap.

If that gets interpreted as "pro-rename so we should rename, and then trap is the most popular rename so use that" it is the exact opposite of my preference which is "I don't care whether we rename, but if we do it should not be to trap".

I think a "meh" for femboy would have communicated that better. A positive vote suggests you support the option more than you actually do. But I do agree there was no real way to tell who preferred otoko no ko to either of the two proposed options. Even if it turns out the majority does support using trap, it still shows the inherent flaws of using two BURs to represent three choices.

Damian0358 said:

Agreed on this too. This was a divisive enough topic that having the webmaster decidedly step in would quell any major resentment after. Even if it is coming in now and affirming NNT's decision to move it to the name chosen, just something would help.

I also agree evazion should probably make some kind of statement, but he has to be careful because if he says the wrong thing, the resentment might end up redirected at him. And even if he says the right thing, he still might get blowback. Though you could say it's his duty as the website owner.

I don't know if he's been keeping tabs on this topic, but if he has, he'll likely need time to craft an appropriate response if he chooses to address it.

nonamethanks said:

most people were for moving the tag, and the disagreement was on where to move it to.

I don't think this is a clear conclusion, as someone who would also have preferred no-rename to this specific option while not being opposed to other choices. I think it is incorrect to conclude that a specific change that was largely voted against is a mostly agreed upon change due to "some kind of change" being a popular decision.

To save anyone the time summing these with the interpretation of change / no change that has been taken, here is a count of those who had no strong opinion, those who expressed a preference for otoko no ko to remain, and those who expressed a preference for otoko no ko to be changed. Numbers from BlankUser's reply.

Expressed no preference:

0 + 4 + 1 + 4 = 9

Opposed a change from otoko no ko:

22 + 4 + 31 + 8 + 19 = 84

Supported a change from otoko no ko:

19 + 34 + 5 + 6 + 31 + 2 + 11 = 108

The preferred new tag of those who supported the change:
Trap: 19 + 34 + 5 = 58
Femboy: 6 + 31 + 2 = 39
Likes both equally: 11

A radio button selection for multiple choice BURs would be a nice feature, but I think this is the best interpretation that can be done with the voting system that exists, otherwise every future vote to move away from a tag that has multiple alternatives can be rigged in favour of the incumbent by suggesting another option in a second BUR.
People were always going to be upset if their option wasn't selected here, especially with an emotionally charged tag like this.

Blank_User said:

Here's a summary of the final results if anyone wants to argue about them:

CrossbowArcanePlus said:

To save anyone the time summing these with the interpretation of change / no change that has been taken, here is a count of those who had no strong opinion, those who expressed a preference for otoko no ko to remain, and those who expressed a preference for otoko no ko to be changed. Numbers from BlankUser's reply.

Would it be worth accounting for BUR #40559? As much as blindVigil made the point that it didn't count due to it being a correction and not a true rename, it's still doesn't wholly represent the status quo as it is still a change. If nothing else, it would be interesting to see how the stats looked like with that BUR accounted for as well.

Damian0358 said:

Would it be worth accounting for BUR #40559? As much as blindVigil made the point that it didn't count due to it being a correction and not a true rename, it's still doesn't wholly represent the status quo as it is still a change. If nothing else, it would be interesting to see how the stats looked like with that BUR accounted for as well.

Last time I checked, most people who voted for that rename also voted in the other BURs, so their vote was already counted one way or the other. It was only a handful of people that only voted for that bur alone, and accounting for them didn't shift the needle a single bit.

Edit: never mind, getting drawn back into this debate is a mistake.

I really don't think this is in any way a clear conclusion when the vote on aliasing back to trap had over 100 downvotes and downvoting was still the majority. I dunno, I'm just really not a fan of the convoluted vote math here.

I will be avoiding the incoming drama though, so that's all I'll add. In the meantime, anyone is free to join me in my bunker

Confetto said:

In the meantime, anyone is free to join me in my bunker

Do you have snacks? I'd like to join.

I only voted neither way because "trap" is a very ambiguous word on its own without qualifiers, but the BUR has not changed the majority case of when I want to search or exclude "otoko_no_ko" even if it's aliased to words that are pretty much similar in category.

Confetto said:

I really don't think this is in any way a clear conclusion when the vote on aliasing back to trap had over 100 downvotes and downvoting was still the majority. I dunno, I'm just really not a fan of the convoluted vote math here.

The problem isn’t that there are more downvotes for trap than upvotes. That’s likely to happen when there’s more than two choices. The problem is that by design, those in favor of okoto no ko could not be properly represented since users could only vote for it indirectly. The only choice that could definitively be considered a vote for okoto no ko was a downvote on both BURs.

If we were able to hold polls for things like this in the forums like pretty much every other site, there would be no ambiguity about how many voted for each one.

Damian0358 said:

Would it be worth accounting for BUR #40559? As much as blindVigil made the point that it didn't count due to it being a correction and not a true rename, it's still doesn't wholly represent the status quo as it is still a change. If nothing else, it would be interesting to see how the stats looked like with that BUR accounted for as well.

I think there are two ways of looking at that BUR.

• The votes are considered votes for moving away from "otoko_no_ko" (because of the spelling), in which case the vote to change it still wins, then in the "what should the new name be?" round the corrected spelling comes in second behind "trap" as the "new" name and the result is the same. (48 vs. 59, or 48 vs. 69 depending on how you slice it.)
• The votes are considered a sort of implicit vote for not changing the tag, and just correcting a spelling mistake. If these votes had no replication in the other BURs then keep otoko no ko would win and round 2 would pick between the wrong spelling or the right one, but as NNT says there will be a lot of overlap.

I can check if other people are interested or even add it as a third dimension to the grid, but I haven't counted at this point in time with removed overlap and I don't think it will make a difference.

Blank_User said:

The problem isn’t that there are more downvotes for trap than upvotes. That’s likely to happen when there’s more than two choices. The problem is that by design, those in favor of okoto no ko could not be properly represented since users could only vote for it indirectly. The only choice that could definitively be considered a vote for okoto no ko was a downvote on both BURs.

If we were able to hold polls for things like this in the forums like pretty much every other site, there would be no ambiguity about how many voted for each one.

For my count at least, any ambiguous votes are considered votes for keeping otoko_no_ko. In that sense it actually overcounts votes for keeping otoko_no_ko, but changing it to something else still wins.

• If someone votes yes to either trap or femboy there is no ambiguity about whether they want a change.
• If someone votes no to both there is also no ambiguity.
• When they vote no and meh or no and no vote it is possible that they don't really care one way or the other about keeping otoko_no_ko, but they have some technical issue with trap (booby traps) or femboy (slightly different concept), but in my count, these are still counted as votes to keep otoko_no_ko when really they might just be fence sitting on the first round.

So in this instance, it's not a problem because the result is the same, but if this kind of thing comes up again in future that ambiguous zone might tip the scale.
I have been eyeing up the GitHub to see if I can wrap my head around enough Ruby for a radio button vote PR. Not sure if I'll get around to that though.

Well, I'll hold off on actually doing anything until the ambiguity of the result is resolved, but if the tag remains, we should probably do some tag cleanup removing cosplayers from the tag and modifying them to be something else.