otoko no ko -> trap

wingdings said:

the only advantage trap has here, which is what i assume is the primary reason behind it being picked, is having an agreed upon domain-specific definition in anime circles.

The real advantage the term has is the fact that it is the preferred term of the admin who made the original BURs, the admin who is currently the main BUR approver (and due to current incapacity, hasn't been approving as much this year). With the BURs affirming his own personal preference, and with everyone else at his level or higher allowing it to go through, there's nothing that's going to get it changed now, and because that was the main point, anything discussed since has been ignored (including things such as the proposal of restoring otokonoko as a parent tag to trap).

gratman said:

I suppose that makes sense, but I was very much mislead by the fact that otoko no ko redirects to trap instead of girly_boy which would make a lot more sense. I'll use girly_boy for now, but having never heard of this tag before today despite being a regular, I don't have a ton of confidence I'll get a ton of properly-tagged posts there. Guess we'll see.

There's also the fact that girly boy has its own usage strings attached.

Damian0358 said:

The real advantage the term has is the fact that it is the preferred term of the admin who made the original BURs, the admin who is currently the main BUR approver (and due to current incapacity, hasn't been approving as much this year). With the BURs affirming his own personal preference, and with everyone else at his level or higher allowing it to go through, there's nothing that's going to get it changed now, and because that was the main point, anything discussed since has been ignored (including things such as the proposal of restoring otokonoko as a parent tag to trap).

There's also the fact that girly boy has its own usage strings attached.

You don't have to agree with the decision, but implying the counterpoints were not addressed and the BUR was passed solely because of admin preference is incorrect. It was already explained how the common usage of otoko no ko covers a broader range than what the definition of trap covers. The only arguments I've seen so far for changing it back is that the number of users supporting otoko no ko may have been underestimated and that trap's use as a transphobic slur predates its usage in the English-speaking anime community, neither of which resolve the discrepancy between the ranges both terms cover.

It would be far more productive to counter these arguments rather than throw around accusations. The BURs pertaining to this subject are the only ones I've seen that attract this, and this seems to be the case even when the rationale behind the decision is made transparent like the ones in this thread.

The only way I could see the alias being reverted is if it can be shown that the argument of one being broader than the other is false. Otherwise, they would have to be made different tags. NNT said it wouldn't be a good idea to unalias it right now because people are used to the previous alias, but if people start consistently use trap only for actual traps, then I think it would be safe to make trap imply otoko no ko (or otokonoko). Other tags like girly boy could also imply it if appropriate. Point being, we can't discuss reverting the alias until we can agree that otoko no ko and trap mean the exact same thing.

i'd just like some added clarity on how to tag. post #9724252 (boy on boy action if you don't wanna see that) would be tagged otoko no ko, but now what does it fall under? venti is often considered a trap character but there's nothing in this image that'd fool you into believing these are girls so is it girly_boy? do they even look that girly?

Blank_User said:

You don't have to agree with the decision, but implying the counterpoints were not addressed and the BUR was passed solely because of admin preference is incorrect. It would be far more productive to counter these arguments rather than throw around accusations. The BURs pertaining to this subject are the only ones I've seen that attract [accusations], and this seems to be the case even when the rationale behind the decision is made transparent like the ones in this thread.

But it is correct. We would've seen a similar change for paizuri in topic #32399 per forum #362811 and forum #365581, if not for the fact that, unlike this topic, where the support for non-trap options was more diffuse, support for paizuri was far more clearcut. His preference for the term trap over all else was incredibly clear (forum #351038). It would've been an accusation had he chosen to do this process unilaterally like Renim had all those years ago, but it's very clear that, having allowed the entire process to go through, and with the numbers in votes aligning in such a way that they leaned towards his personal preference, he was given the go-ahead to approve, due to evazion trusting his judgement. I wouldn't be saying what I'm saying if things weren't made transparent.

It was already explained how the common usage of otoko no ko covers a broader range than what the definition of trap covers. The only arguments I've seen so far... [don't] resolve the discrepancy between the ranges both terms cover.

The only way I could see the alias being reverted is if it can be shown that the argument of one being broader than the other is false. Otherwise, they would have to be made different tags. NNT said it wouldn't be a good idea to unalias it right now because people are used to the previous alias, but if people start consistently use trap only for actual traps, then I think it would be safe to make trap imply otokonoko. Other tags like girly boy could also imply it if appropriate. Point being, we can't discuss reverting the alias until we can agree that otokonoko and trap mean the exact same thing.

Well, I don't think trap is going to be consistently used for actual traps for one very glaring reason, one I had mentioned earlier in the thread (forum #362880, forum #362883), the Other Names. I do not think that the name of the tag will change people's practices as it relates to the tag's Other Names whatsoever, based on how users use the Other Names for tags elsewhere on site. 男の娘 has been in its Other Names since 2014, and from 2017 to 2020 we had the additions of 女装少年 (2018), こんな可愛い子が女の子のはずがない (2019), わぁい (2020), 女装子 (2020), 男の娘×女の子 (2020), and だが男だ (2020). NNT already banished some posts to girly boy (without consideration for that tag's integrity when all he cares about is trap, which, based on recent tag usage, seems to have enabled others to follow in his footsteps), but I imagine that that's going to be a regular thing that needs to be done due to the Other Names, as well as checking the entirety of the last decade's worth of the tag.

As long as the Other Names stay as they are, taggers are going to treat otokonoko and trap as synonyms, which would be, in practice, an agreement that the two mean the exact same thing. Only time will tell on that one though.

gratman said:

i'd just like some added clarity on how to tag. post #9724252 (boy on boy action if you don't wanna see that) would be tagged otoko no ko, but now what does it fall under? venti is often considered a trap character but there's nothing in this image that'd fool you into believing these are girls so is it girly_boy? do they even look that girly?

Well, here's where you've fallen into a trap. Girly boys aren't girly boys because they look girly, they are girly boys because they act girly, per the wiki. Just because a girly boy can appear effeminate in clothing, makeup, etc. doesn't mean that all girly boys are effeminate in that way (ex. post #2349099). It's why the first major topic that tag was involved in focused on that element (topic #16818). The same applies to tomboys. But because appearance is easier to tag than behavior, tags like these and lolibaba either get undertagged or mistagged.

Using tomboy as an example of, relating to my previous point, how Other Names impact tagging, how is post #10023121 (rating:e) a tomboy? Being tan, being fit, and having short hair doesn't implicitly make one a tomboy, unless you're focusing just on appearance. The post in question was tagged with ボーイッシュ on Pixiv, a tag that has boy-like characters, but when you look at its list of applicable characters, you see it accounts for Android 18 and Chi-Chi from Dragon Ball, Melusine from Fate, and Penny from Pokemon Scarlet and Violet, clearly indicating a broader application than what tomboy in English would commonly refer to. Contrast that post with something like post #9985839 (rating:e).

Damian0358 said:
Well, here's where you've fallen into a trap. Girly boys aren't girly boys because they look girly, they are girly boys because they act girly, per the wiki. Just because a girly boy can appear effeminate in clothing, makeup, etc. doesn't mean that all girly boys are effeminate in that way (ex. post #2349099).

ok, so I take this to mean you think girly boy is the appropriate tag here, but how do either boy in the post act girly? venti because he's getting fucked? (i feel like that train of logic could lead you to tag girly boy for guys that aren't girly at all)

gratman said:

i'd just like some added clarity on how to tag. post #9724252 (boy on boy action if you don't wanna see that) would be tagged otoko no ko, but now what does it fall under? venti is often considered a trap character but there's nothing in this image that'd fool you into believing these are girls so is it girly_boy? do they even look that girly?

Here’s the trap wiki before the big change. Even with this name or examples, I don’t think I would’ve tagged otokonoko on that post. And girly boy is based on behavior (do what you will with that). Would bishounen apply?

i don't think the othername is the cause of people overtagging, especially when the current name is a one word vibes based meme. a lot of it is down to people thinking of characters in certain ways regardless of individual depiction in a given image, etc (this is more of a general common issue that also appears in things like color tagging)

there might be some impact from pixiv tags including the othername but it's certainly the most popular pixiv tag used for images that the tag should apply to so i don't think it can really be removed

gratman said:

ok, so I take this to mean you think girly boy is the appropriate tag here, but how do either boy in the post act girly? venti because he's getting fucked? (i feel like that train of logic could lead you to tag girly boy for guys that aren't girly at all)

Girly boy is a personality type in the same way tomboy is, which is why I personally didn't support an alias of "tomgirl" for this tag since I think the name would lead to mistags. A Girly Boy could be crossdressing but doesn't have to be, in the same way a sporty athletic tomboy isn't crossdressing.

Here is a reference

Girly Boy, feminine boys who usually enjoy female activities, might wear nail polish or hairclips but usually don't crossdress. Like Tomboy this tag suffers from the fact that it's a personality type, but without resorting to canon-tagging I think the example images on the wiki showcase it well.

Androgynous, wider net, encompasses ones that are still visibly male but have elements of femininity.

Crossdressing, a man wearing clothes traditionally associated with women like dresses or skirts. What sets this apart from just trap is they don't need to be indistinguishable from women.

Trap the character is indistinguishable from a girl. "Draw a girl call it a boy." The character may or may not be crossdressing, the important element is if you didn't know the character at a glance you'd assume they were a girl. Usually for plot-related or fetish reasons.

There is no one tag for cute boy and all of these have overlap. The fact that this thread was reinvigorated by the complaint that trap is now mostly boys who look like girls means that the rename has helped curb mistags. I still think androgynous male_focus is the broadest possible search for the "Cute boy" concept and is probably what you are looking for.

zetsubousensei said:

Thanks for the detailed breakdown. Like I said, I can probably deal with the current tags even if I disagree with the decisions, but androgynous male_focus isn't a great solution. Anytime you turn 1 tag into 2, you involve money in the discussion. I'm hopeful that that wasn't the aim of the decisions made.

I would imagine there is no profit motive involved here considering you still cannot pay for Gold.

tamuraakemi said:

I would imagine there is no profit motive involved here considering you still cannot pay for Gold.

Wait, what? I seriously thought you could. My bad then, nevermind that.

gratman said:

Wait, what? I seriously thought you could. My bad then, nevermind that.

It's been more than three years since Gold became unavailable for purchase due to payment processors.

Damian0358 said:

It's been more than three years since Gold became unavailable for purchase due to payment processors.

I'm a bit curious how the website stays afloat when it apparently hasn't shown ads in more than a decade and received no membership revenue for years, especially when it's got such intense storage needs.

zetsubousensei said:

This is literally the definition of the tag, the point even when it had it's prior name is that the character is almost indistinguishable from a girl. The search you're looking for is androgynous male_focus.

yeah that's kind of the problem tho

Freminet (genshin impact) is otoko no ko (not trap)

Xingqiu (Genshin Impact) is otoko no ko or shota (not trap)

Bennett (Genshin Impact) is a shota not otoko no ko

Astolfo (Fate) is otoko no ko (and trap)

Kanzaki Hideri is otoko no ko (and trap)

Jinshi (Kusuriya No Hitorigoto) is androgynous but not otoko no ko (and a trap when he crossdresses)

how the hell does dlsite/toranoana/pixiv have tags for otoko no ko, there is an entire mini-industry for otoko no ko, an entire otoko no ko fandom, several serialized otoko no ko anthologies and danbooru simply doesn't have an otoko no ko tag anymore but has mesugaki and osugaki?

i mean i said this before but this is just going to make tagging this crap way harder because before you could just say "this is a young boy that looks a bit feminine and it's not a shota so it's an otoko no ko" but now it's like "do i tag this femboy, trap, twink, bishounen, androgynous, crossdressing, girly boy or shota?"

people are literally going to have to go through the Otokonoko Heaven tag and figure out which one of these other tags apply on a case by case basis

trapster77 said:

how the hell does dlsite/toranoana/pixiv have tags for otoko no ko, there is an entire mini-industry for otoko no ko, an entire otoko no ko fandom, several serialized otoko no ko anthologies and danbooru simply doesn't have an otoko no ko tag anymore but has mesugaki and osugaki?

You can look above for the break down, but I am going to reiterate that even when the the tag was called ONK it was never intended to be used that way it has always been the tag for the definition above.

trapster77 said:

i mean i said this before but this is just going to make tagging this crap way harder because before you could just say "this is a young boy that looks a bit feminine and it's not a shota so it's an otoko no ko" but now it's like "do i tag this femboy, trap, twink, bishounen, androgynous, crossdressing, girly boy or shota?"

i consider this granularity a feature, not a bug of danbooru, but i will concede that it is annoying when trying to search for the overarching trope (perhaps it's time to revive the idea of creating otokonoko as an umbrella tag? the androgynous male_focus search linked above is probably one's best bet in the meantime, but i will note that it doesn't account for situations where the androgynous male in question is not the focus of the image), or even when trying to tag, since the boundaries of each of these tags tend to be blurry.

wingdings said:

i consider this granularity a feature, not a bug of danbooru, but i will concede that it is annoying when trying to search for the overarching trope (perhaps it's time to revive the idea of creating otokonoko as an umbrella tag? the androgynous male_focus search linked above is probably one's best bet in the meantime, but i will note that it doesn't account for situations where the androgynous male in question is not the focus of the image), or even when trying to tag, since the boundaries of each of these tags tend to be blurry.

there are astolfo posts in androgynous now. feels like this is just going to turn 1 tag into 3 tags...

btw imo this is androgynous

the problem with letting otoko no ko into androgynous and that 9/10 times otoko no ko are androgynous because they are young. just like there is twinkdeath there is otoko no kodeath and i don't think i've ever seen a 30 year old otoko no ko in anime. they're also generally short male because in genshin for example it's literally just a medium female model with a mars symbol as its gender. this is going to make characters are tall adult and androgynous or just weirdly androgynous harder to find if androgynous becomes de facto the femboy tag.

bishounen is probably a better fit but again we're going to have to keep asking... is Kanzaki Hideri a bishounen? is Astolfo (Fate) a bishounen? is Bennett (Genshin Impact) a bishounen? whenever the trap tag doesn't fit it's going to be subjective

zetsubousensei said:

You can look above for the break down, but I am going to reiterate that even when the the tag was called ONK it was never intended to be used that way it has always been the tag for the definition above.

but maybe it should have been tho!

I wasn't planning on popping into this thread again but I did want to question the assertion that the tag was always and only for "images of men that look 100% like girls" Even back before trap was renamed into otoko_no_ko there were images that didn't fit this 100% feminine, can't tell it's a male mold but still fit the general fetish and are what I believe people are looking for in a tag like this. Images like post #48256, post #74777 and a bunch of po-ju art were all in the trap tag before it was renamed and just pushing all images like these (androgynous and girly but not girly enough to be Watarase Jun-level androgynous) into girly boy conflicts with girly boy's actual wiki. Sure, post #9768679 is feminine but he's not "acting feminine" which is the actual criteria according to the wiki.
There's androgynous male_focus but as the above posts have said that's both a 2tag search and includes images like post #10015138 and post #10013486

Honestly crazy to see it being reversed to trap in 2025 considering how dated it is. I struggle to see how it is more reasonable to learn this American meme term that has been replaced in general anime fan circles for half a decade than the more accurate, still used in Japan, less controversial term of otokonoko. If you have to learn a term in the first place, I strongly believe the less harmful and more accurate term should be used even if you have to learn it. I think arguing what terms other tagging sites use is mostly silly as a lot of those are only like that because they originate from a past era