That's your standard for this? sankaku and gelbooru? A site that's historically been terrible as an image database and had to use really bad TMZ-journalism posts to get any attention, and a site that took about a decade of people complaining about the lack of an oppai loli tag before they finally admitted that it was an actual thing?
You're looking at the paste eaters who are so bad at their job they can't even make a halfway functional website without plastering it with AI porn advertisements and going, "God, I wish that was us" and wishing you could be like that? Did you buy your way onto being an admin or something, because this shit would not have flown a decade ago purely out of a sense of website superiority
plz dont slander us. paste and glue are diferent things
In my opinion, "trap" can mean several things, like a literal trap or a genre of music, and it doesn't cover all feminine dudes, only specifically those who dress up as girls.
In my opinion, "trap" can mean several things, like a literal trap or a genre of music, and it doesn't cover all feminine dudes, only specifically those who dress up as girls.
That's why I think it should be tomgirl.
The same logic you’re using to argue against “trap” can also be used against “tomgirl” since it is possible to act feminine without looking feminine. Besides, the term “trap” is widely understood in the context of anime.
"Tomboy" means what it means because "Tom" was the typical male name at the time (like John) so it was a bit like saying "boyboy" and used to describe a "typical" boy, and later describe a girl as stereotypically boyish. "Tomgirl" doesn't work in that sense ("boygirl"? probably not what you want and doesn't mean "stereotypically girlish".) and it isn't well known enough to have carved out it's own meaning. At least, I have never heard it used.
It feels exceptionally disingenuous that this change is being done at a time when trans rights are heavily under attack across the world.
I am old enough to remember when the term “trap” first appeared, and both the internet and the communities that spawned the term have changed in the decades since to such a degree that they are now unrecognizable in form and function. We live in a different world, now, and changing “trap” to “otoko no ko” reflected that changing world, and a sensitivity to new norms.
Now, at a time where protections for transgender persons are being stripped away like never before and attacks by politicians on this vulnerable minority group are inescapable, the slur is being brought back. (Yes, I’m aware there’s a massive amount of disagreement in this thread as to whether “trap” is a slur; suffice to say I’ve yet to meet a transgender person who feels it is not a slur, which speaks volumes.) That the term has a long history of use does not make it not a slur; the term “gypsy” has a much larger circulation than “Romani,” but that doesn’t change that it’s now widely seen as a slur.
I just think that treating this change, at this moment in history, as a high-minded and apolitical adjustment based on common usage is sketchy at best and outright lying at worst. It gives every appearance of kicking a vulnerable group while they’re down, of having pushed to revert a change previously made for sensitivity reasons specifically **because** the tide is turning against them and therefore it was more likely to pass now than it was before. It feels crummy and predatory and leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but most of all it feels dishonest as to the reason for the change, and that honestly feels worst of all.
It feels exceptionally disingenuous that this change is being done at a time when trans rights are heavily under attack across the world.
I am old enough to remember when the term “trap” first appeared, and both the internet and the communities that spawned the term have changed in the decades since to such a degree that they are now unrecognizable in form and function. We live in a different world, now, and changing “trap” to “otoko no ko” reflected that changing world, and a sensitivity to new norms.
Now, at a time where protections for transgender persons are being stripped away like never before and attacks by politicians on this vulnerable minority group are inescapable, the slur is being brought back. (Yes, I’m aware there’s a massive amount of disagreement in this thread as to whether “trap” is a slur; suffice to say I’ve yet to meet a transgender person who feels it is not a slur, which speaks volumes.) That the term has a long history of use does not make it not a slur; the term “gypsy” has a much larger circulation than “Romani,” but that doesn’t change that it’s now widely seen as a slur.
I just think that treating this change, at this moment in history, as a high-minded and apolitical adjustment based on common usage is sketchy at best and outright lying at worst. It gives every appearance of kicking a vulnerable group while they’re down, of having pushed to revert a change previously made for sensitivity reasons specifically **because** the tide is turning against them and therefore it was more likely to pass now than it was before. It feels crummy and predatory and leaves a bad taste in my mouth, but most of all it feels dishonest as to the reason for the change, and that honestly feels worst of all.
Imo you can take your guilt tripping elsewhere. Communities should be allowed to use words for their own purposes without needing to self-censor because a word has a parallel history in another community. Are you going to march into Spain and tell them they can't use "negro" anymore because Americans made it a bad word?
No one here is using "trap" to attack trans people. Trap does not mean "trans person" and at absolute worst a trans character may be tagged trap entirely based on their appearance, and they would still be tagged as such if they weren't trans, because it has nothing to do with them being trans. The original change to otokonoko made no sense because our usage of the word never had any direct relation to trans people, it was just arbitrarily changed because a trans person might get upset that we used the word at all, without regard for how we were using it.
I for one am not going to be censored by crybullies.
Imo you can take your guilt tripping elsewhere. Communities should be allowed to use words for their own purposes without needing to self-censor because a word has a parallel history in another community. Are you going to march into Spain and tell them they can't use "negro" anymore because Americans made it a bad word?
No one here is using "trap" to attack trans people. Trap does not mean "trans person" and at absolute worst a trans character may be tagged trap entirely based on their appearance, and they would still be tagged as such if they weren't trans, because it has nothing to do with them being trans. The original change to otokonoko made no sense because our usage of the word never had any direct relation to trans people, it was just arbitrarily changed because a trans person might get upset that we used the word at all, without regard for how we were using it.
I for one am not going to be censored by crybullies.
You…do realize that trans people consume Japanese media and are an active part of this community, right? And it’s those people who have been weighing in on this? No one who isn’t drenched in enthusiasm for what Danbooru is doing even knows the term “trap” for this sort of thing exists. I’m not going to Spain and demanding that they cease the use of a Spanish word because of how the word is used in America, I’m making a note of how the word affects the community we’re in right now. That using the word “trap” has no negative connotations in this context for you does not mean those connotations do not exist, no matter how much you insist otherwise.
Calling people who are merely requesting empathy “crybullies” is not a good look IMO, but it admittedly feels more honest about the motivations behind this change than highminded appeals to popular usage does, so props for that.
I don't think you can really argue that someone bringing up real negative connotations the word "trap" can and does have towards trans people, especially trans women, in a lot of otaku communities is an attempt to censor you when the vote to change back to trap from otoko no ko went through +69 / -103 ... Maybe use different wording there.
Calling people who are merely requesting empathy “crybullies” is not a good look IMO, but it admittedly feels more honest about the motivations behind this change than highminded appeals to popular usage does, so props for that.
I’m not going to argue against your claims, but I will give you fair warning that appealing to empathy alone won’t work. There have been practical reasons stated to justify the reversion to trap, such as the claim that the term otoko no ko covers a wider range than what typically is considered part of the trap fetish. We may even remove the alias entirely and make them two separate tags in the future to accommodate for the wider range.
I reluctantly support the decision that was made to change back to trap and also agree with removing the alias because I believe the tags we use should be as inoffensive as possible without compromising on tag functionality. Unfortunately, while trap is problematic to use due to the controversy surrounding it, we don’t have a better way of describing those specific posts right now without having it bleed into the larger otoko no ko category. We also have drawfag, which contains an unquestionably offensive slur, but that’s what those artists go by, so it would be silly for us to call them something else.
If you want to do away with trap entirely, you should focus on finding a solution for this problem. Using this thread as a platform to criticize other users in a way that could potentially start a flame war will likely result in the thread being locked, which will greatly reduce the chance of any change taking place.
gunupmyskirt said:
I don't think you can really argue that someone bringing up real negative connotations the word "trap" can and does have towards trans people, especially trans women, in a lot of otaku communities is an attempt to censor you when the vote to change back to trap from otoko no ko went through +69 / -103 ... Maybe use different wording there.
Don’t forget that a significant number of users that downvoted trap also upvoted femboy. This was a three-way poll jerry-rigged from two binary BURs.
Trap does not mean "trans person" and at absolute worst a trans character may be tagged trap entirely based on their appearance, and they would still be tagged as such if they weren't trans, because it has nothing to do with them being trans. The original change to otokonoko made no sense because our usage of the word never had any direct relation to trans people, it was just arbitrarily changed because a trans person might get upset that we used the word at all, without regard for how we were using it.
I for one am not going to be censored by crybullies.
It's interesting we've discursively shifted from "trap does not mean trans person" to "our usage of trap has nothing to do with trans people", given forum #365264 to forum #365287 proves the former wrong, forcing the latter argument.
i can't overstate how much of a disaster this change has been as someone who actually looks for this stuff, nevermind the controversy around the term. lots of posts I'm looking for (e.g. post #10025106) are simply not being tagged trap (or girly_boy which I just learned was a thing) because taggers either aren't used to the term or don't want to use it. oftentimes trap is just filled with crossdressing that's nearly indistinguishable from a girl (hence the term) and no cute boys who are clearly boys. sucks!
oftentimes trap is just filled with crossdressing that's nearly indistinguishable from a girl (hence the term) and no cute boys who are clearly boys. sucks!
This is literally the definition of the tag, the point even when it had it's prior name is that the character is almost indistinguishable from a girl. The search you're looking for is androgynous male_focus.
because taggers either aren't used to the term or don't want to use it.
Not much can be done about the second, but the first shouldn't be an issue. People used to adding otoko no ko can still do so. The only difference is how it appears in the tag list. Other users did the same thing when the original alias was made by continuing to use trap.
oftentimes trap is just filled with crossdressing that's nearly indistinguishable from a girl (hence the term) and no cute boys who are clearly boys. sucks!
That's how it's supposed to be. If a male character is easily identified as such, then there is no "trap."
zetsubousensei said:
This is literally the definition of the tag, the point even when it had it's prior name is that the character is almost indistinguishable from a girl. The search you're looking for is androgynous male_focus.
Girly boy will be sufficient for those posts as long as they're tagged properly.
Blank_User said: That's how it's supposed to be. If a male character is easily identified as such, then there is no "trap."
I suppose that makes sense, but I was very much mislead by the fact that otoko no ko redirects to trap instead of girly_boy which would make a lot more sense. I'll use girly_boy for now, but having never heard of this tag before today despite being a regular, I don't have a ton of confidence I'll get a ton of properly-tagged posts there. Guess we'll see.
I suppose that makes sense, but I was very much mislead by the fact that otoko no ko redirects to trap instead of girly_boy which would make a lot more sense.
this is something that myself and others have brought up several times in this thread - how all of the names used for this trope don't 100% match the way it's defined here on danbooru. not even trap (the word) means trap (the danbooru tag), as was established in forum #365264 and onwards.
at that point, picking the primary name of the tag becomes an exercise in picking poisons, unless someone comes up with and popularizes a term that matches exactly the way we define this tag, and because "male_who_convincingly_passes_as_a_female" is a horrible tag name. the only advantage trap has here, which is what i assume is the primary reason behind it being picked, is having an agreed upon domain-specific definition in anime circles. it's a shame that it also has a double meaning that leads many to understandably think of it as a slur.
wingdings said: "male_who_convincingly_passes_as_a_female" is a horrible tag name
To be honest, if that's what you're looking for then androgynous is probably most accurate and descriptive. I haven't read the discussion but I wonder why the term "tomgirl" wasn't chosen, when it's intuitive, used in other popular sites (nh), inoffensive and nearly identical in spirit to what otoko no ko was for.
"androgynous" does not necessitate convincingly passing as the opposite sex; "indistinguishable" would probably be the correct word to use in regards to what the expectations are for trap.
