otoko no ko -> trap

CrossbowArcanePlus said:

It probably suffered from sample bias, since most people who care to dig that deep and look for it are already emotionally invested in the tag name.
As well, it's not good form in a voting system to keep having redos until you get the result you want.

Even taking into account lower voting for this BUR it got 72 in support for otoko no ko over trap versus the 69 supporting votes for trap in the first BUR that had more overall voters. Given trap lost both times in vote counts by a decent margin, sample bias isn't even an issue. The failure was in how some choose to interpret the results.

CrossbowArcanePlus said:

It probably suffered from sample bias, since most people who care to dig that deep and look for it are already emotionally invested in the tag name. As well, it's not good form in a voting system to keep having redos until you get the result you want.

All votes in this thread have had the same result, which is that otokonoko (or otoko no ko) won. A majority opposed changing otoko no ko to trap, a majority opposed changing otoko no ko to femboy, and now a majority has voted in favor of changing trap to otokonoko. Going back to the original less "sample biased" vote just produces a slightly bigger majority for otoko no ko over trap (34-vote margin instead of 30).

All BUR votes on this site are ultimately advisory, and the admins have every right to ignore them. But what the votes are saying is very clear.

nonemouse said:

But what the votes are saying is very clear.

Vote interpretation is more complicated than you're making out when three options have to be pushed through a binary vote system.

Pretty sure with the results of those three BURs you can interpret it in whichever way gets you the answer you agree with. It's like ranked choice voting but worse, since you can choose whichever option you want to discard from the running first, especially if you're deciding that it's apparently not just voting for femboy vs trap vs otokonoko, it's also secretly "do we want to keep it as otokonoko or something else", and once it's decided the votes are for that then it's just a matter of picking the "something else" that got more votes.

At the end of the day I'm pretty sure the answer is just going to stay as "the admins want it to be trap so it's going to be trap regardless of how many times you vote on it", much like how no humans has been stuck at its current name forever because the admins think none of the proposed options are better even though the userbase does.

Ylimegirl said:

At the end of the day I'm pretty sure the answer is just going to stay as "the admins want it to be trap so it's going to be trap regardless of how many times you vote on it", much like how no humans has been stuck at its current name forever because the admins think none of the proposed options are better even though the userbase does.

And you can narrow down which admin specifically wants it to be trap, and the rest just nodding.

Ylimegirl said:

Pretty sure with the results of those three BURs you can interpret it in whichever way gets you the answer you agree with. It's like ranked choice voting but worse, since you can choose whichever option you want to discard from the running first, especially if you're deciding that it's apparently not just voting for femboy vs trap vs otokonoko, it's also secretly "do we want to keep it as otokonoko or something else", and once it's decided the votes are for that then it's just a matter of picking the "something else" that got more votes.

At the end of the day I'm pretty sure the answer is just going to stay as "the admins want it to be trap so it's going to be trap regardless of how many times you vote on it", much like how no humans has been stuck at its current name forever because the admins think none of the proposed options are better even though the userbase does.

If we're gonna complain about admins arbitrarily changing tags, then we're gonna have to complain about how Otokonoko only came to became a tag because an admin arbitrarily decided that Trap wasn't an acceptable term anymore

Also I would like to say that the term Trap is indeed used in Japan. It's used in the title of Otokonoko works, one iconic example being the manga "Trap Heroine", and it's used by artists in many platform, such as Pixiv, https://dic.pixiv.net/a/Trap.

juir said:

If we're gonna complain about admins arbitrarily changing tags, then we're gonna have to complain about how Otokonoko only came to became a tag because an admin arbitrarily decided that Trap wasn't an acceptable term anymore

Well, we did that complaining, which is why it was put up to a vote, and given the choice, plenty sided with the change to and retaining of otokonoko as the tag name.

juir said:

Also I would like to say that the term Trap is indeed used in Japan. It's used in the title of Otokonoko works, one iconic example being the manga "Trap Heroine", and it's used by artists in many platform, such as Pixiv, https://dic.pixiv.net/a/Trap.

Putting aside the fact that it being used on Pixiv doesn't mean it is being used majorly by Japanese users (there's plenty of Pixiv tags that are dominated solely by Western users), it was inevitable that the term would make its way to Japan given cross-communication and users from both sides looking at the other and seeing what they were up to. It's why cuntboy has that name because the Japanese hadn't gotten around to popularizing an equivalent term in Japanese before that one made it over to them.

But I do think you have to cite way more proof on trap's use in Japan if you think it ultimately matters in this discussion, because just because some in Japan use it (even for commercial products like Trap Heroine) doesn't give any more weight to it being the preferred name for the tag on Danbooru. Hilariously, the Pixiv article not only points out the problematic use of 'trap', but seems unaware of the trap lore we discussed in pages (late) 18 and (early) 19.

I don't plan on making a chart for the vote combinations from all three BURs (it can be done, but a 4x4 grid of 16 4x4 grids would be very annoying and difficult to read), but I did discover a couple things from using the Python scripts to compare them:

• Absolutely none of the voters that upvoted trap also upvoted otokonoko (which is more or less what you'd expect, anyway).
• Out of the 50 voters that upvoted femboy, only 9 also upvoted otokonoko.

I'm not proposing any specific model for tallying the votes. The only two conclusions I can reach from this is that:

• Both the users on the pro-trap side and pro-otokonoko side haven't changed their minds so those votes on the previous BURs are still reliable.
• Any model that groups voters by "pro-change" should exclude about 20% of the pro-femboy votes since they were most likely picking what they saw as the lesser evil rather than what they actually supported.

More importantly, we still need a way to keep users from using the tag on things that fall outside of the specific trap fetish. This is necessary to have any chance of switching the aliases back. However, this would also mean not having an umbrella tag for wider otokonoko tropes.

I don't think this would have much support, but in the interests of at least trying to provide a constructive alternative suggestion, what about "passing_(mtf)" and "passing_(ftm)"? (Or "passing_as_female" / "passing_as_male"?)

Pros:
1. An English language more-or-less neutral term for "someone convincingly looking like the opposite sex/gender"
2. Solves the "what do we call reverse_trap if we don't use trap" problem
3. Matches how we tag crossdressing and genderswap
4. Allows "passing_(gender)" or similar as a parent tag for both directions, if anyone cares about that
5. Not as controversial as "trap"

Cons:
1. No one uses this as a tag anywhere and it won't be anyone's first guess at how to search for it
2. Could be ambiguous / confusing with other definitions of "pass"
3. I expect it may not map exactly to the boundaries of the fetish

nonemouse said:

I don't think this would have much support, but in the interests of at least trying to provide a constructive alternative suggestion, what about "passing_(mtf)" and "passing_(ftm)"? (Or "passing_as_female" / "passing_as_male"?)

Pros:
1. An English language more-or-less neutral term for "someone convincingly looking like the opposite sex/gender"
2. Solves the "what do we call reverse_trap if we don't use trap" problem
3. Matches how we tag crossdressing and genderswap
4. Allows "passing_(gender)" or similar as a parent tag for both directions, if anyone cares about that
5. Not as controversial as "trap"

Cons:
1. No one uses this as a tag anywhere and it won't be anyone's first guess at how to search for it
2. Could be ambiguous / confusing with other definitions of "pass"
3. I expect it may not map exactly to the boundaries of the fetish

I don't think this is a good option as "passing" is even more commonly used in a transgender context than it is a crossdressing one.

juir said:

Also I would like to say that the term Trap is indeed used in Japan. It's used in the title of Otokonoko works, one iconic example being the manga "Trap Heroine", and it's used by artists in many platform, such as Pixiv, https://dic.pixiv.net/a/Trap.

It's natural that Pixiv wouldn't explore Trap as an internet slang, once the focus of the site is one Otaku terminology and culture, it's the same way as they don't explore Otokonoko outside of the realm of Otaku culture.

Confetto said:

I don't think this is a good option as "passing" is even more commonly used in a transgender context than it is a crossdressing one.

Would create even more issues and make users from both sides of the spectrum unreasonably angry

HyphenSam said:

So the justification for BUR #40541 being approved was "most people were for moving the tag" based on some confusing table, and "otoko no ko was a stupid name that nobody uses".

Now we have BUR #42868 with a clear amount of upvotes/downvotes (+72 / -42), yet this got silently rejected.

You know, between the infamous Bridget incident and this, the tinfoil hat part of me sometimes wonders if there's some sort of hidden agenda at play here. But I don't want to go full-on conspiracy theorist and start making wild accusations that'll get me in trouble, so I'll leave it at that.

MultivitaminCCC said:

You know, between the infamous Bridget incident and this, the tinfoil hat part of me sometimes wonders if there's some sort of hidden agenda at play here.

i don't think there's any conspiracy at play here. it's just admins disregarding the opinions of the userbase.

anyway, at this point i just want something to be done about the femboy alias. i find it puzzling that part of the basis for renaming onk back to trap is that "otokonoko" doesn't map exactly to our definition of the trope, meanwhile we have another term that doesn't map exactly to how we define trap still actively aliased.

nonamethanks said:

Both sankaku and gelbooru use trap btw, so we're currently the odd ones out.

That's your standard for this? sankaku and gelbooru? A site that's historically been terrible as an image database and had to use really bad TMZ-journalism posts to get any attention, and a site that took about a decade of people complaining about the lack of an oppai loli tag before they finally admitted that it was an actual thing?

You're looking at the paste eaters who are so bad at their job they can't even make a halfway functional website without plastering it with AI porn advertisements and going, "God, I wish that was us" and wishing you could be like that? Did you buy your way onto being an admin or something, because this shit would not have flown a decade ago purely out of a sense of website superiority

Keita-Kuhn said:

That's your standard for this? sankaku and gelbooru? A site that's historically been terrible as an image database and had to use really bad TMZ-journalism posts to get any attention, and a site that took about a decade of people complaining about the lack of an oppai loli tag before they finally admitted that it was an actual thing?

You're looking at the paste eaters who are so bad at their job they can't even make a halfway functional website without plastering it with AI porn advertisements and going, "God, I wish that was us" and wishing you could be like that? Did you buy your way onto being an admin or something, because this shit would not have flown a decade ago purely out of a sense of website superiority

Hell, if we're gonna compare ourselves to literal trashfire websites, Rule34 has *both* tags activate at the same time, but I don't see anyone scrambling to want to be Rule34 with its pages upon pages of ai slop to the point that they had to adopt a toggle just to hide it.

Keita-Kuhn said:

That's your standard for this? sankaku and gelbooru? A site that's historically been terrible as an image database and had to use really bad TMZ-journalism posts to get any attention, and a site that took about a decade of people complaining about the lack of an oppai loli tag before they finally admitted that it was an actual thing?

You're looking at the paste eaters who are so bad at their job they can't even make a halfway functional website without plastering it with AI porn advertisements and going, "God, I wish that was us" and wishing you could be like that? Did you buy your way onto being an admin or something, because this shit would not have flown a decade ago purely out of a sense of website superiority

Using two popular imageboards as evidence for one term being more popular than another is not the same as advocating for their overall quality. NNT also mentioned plenty of other websites (forum #350595) to support his position. If you think there are some popular sites that should be added to this list as counter evidence, feel free to bring them up.

X-Sam said:

Hell, if we're gonna compare ourselves to literal trashfire websites, Rule34 has *both* tags activate at the same time, but I don't see anyone scrambling to want to be Rule34 with its pages upon pages of ai slop to the point that they had to adopt a toggle just to hide it.

The reason why Rule34 has both tags active (or rather, otoko no ko, trap and femboy are all active, as mentioned here) is because they never bothered to merge the tags, which is why no one invoked it.

nonamethanks said:

---

Notable anime sites using "otoko no ko"/"otokonoko":

• Danbooru

---

Notable anime sites using "trap":

• AniDB
• Gelbooru
• mangaupdates
• Sankaku
• vndb
• yande.re

---

Notable sites using "femboy":

• Anilist

---

Notable anime sites using something else:

• e-hentai: "tomgirl"
• derivatives like nhentai also use this because they are just mirrors, but curiously they all have aliases from "trap" to it, probably because of the popularity of the term
• nhentai does not have an alias femboy -> tomgirl, but e-hentai does

---

Does anyone have a list of notable anime sites using femboy? I already know nobody but us is using otoko no ko, but I'd rather see what everyone else's doing, and I'm trying to compile a list. If nobody else's using femboy either, that's a big minus for that option.

We can probably ignore very downstream sites that import from multiple boorus (rule34, tbib etc) because they're an absolute clusterfuck, unless they actually aliased the terms away. I see rule34 uses all three for example.

ATF is now using trap too, I mange to get that BUR through.