The bulk update request #47317 (forum #386172) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.
Posted under Tags
The bulk update request #47317 (forum #386172) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.
The bulk update request #47317 (forum #386172) has been approved by @evazion.
The bulk update request #48676 (forum #390744) has been approved by @evazion.
The bulk update request #48587 (forum #390470) has been approved by @evazion.
I think the favgroups for BUR #47317 had gotten out of date and Cyrene (Aedes Elysiae) (Honkai: Star Rail) got applied to a lot of posts it shouldn't have.
It was always going to need manual cleaning with or without them because I stopped maintaining them at some point and it tried to account for as many cases as possible but can't be exhaustive especially when both forms appeared in two pictures. The idea was only to split the tagging between the clearly taller and smaller versions but not to handle ambiguous or unclear cases.
ETA: Now I see it, small mistake here:
mass update cyrene_(honkai:_star_rail) -favgroup:46737 -> cyrene_(aedes_elysiae)_(honkai:_star_rail)
This would have been true back when it was originally pitched but I didn't realise after it had gone so long without going approved that I did not cap it by an id roughly resembling when I stopped updating the favgroups, so it went and mass applied it to all posts that lived outside the favgroup. Some cleanup efforts are underway and as the person who pitched the BUR of course I'm helping clean up.
In the future it'd be better to only handle the tagging of the new form so it's easier to mass update and favgroup the older ones that are outside of dual persona/etc scenarios. Anyway, that'll probably be the last one I submit for a while since I'm already handling other copyrights and will just pitch in for information or voting. Would hope wikis get some due maintenance and not just implication submissions.
Updated by WRS
BUR #49945 has been approved by @evazion.
create implication anaxa_(chimerric_park)_(honkai:_star_rail) -> anaxa_(honkai:_star_rail)
create implication mydei_(chimerric_park)_(honkai:_star_rail) -> mydei_(honkai:_star_rail)
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This is an automatic post. Use topic #31779 to report errors/false positives or general feedback.
BUR #49950 has been rejected.
create implication dan_heng_(lurking)_(honkai:_star_rail) -> dan_heng_(honkai:_star_rail)
Partial counter BUR for forum #388675 and forum #389258 and a response to forum #389086 for Dan Heng. For Evernight, I've extended discussion into topic #33492.
I've kept these two BURs that are stuck in approval limbo in the back of my head for a while after continuing my reimplications project for Honkai Impact 3rd and I had a thought - do we actually, really, truly care about separating these out? Are they really integral for searchability? I was against something like this at first but as I continue to rebuild my thinking process and model out relations and searches as well as see oppositions in practice, I realise that the disagreements are actually reasonable.
I'm not great at being able to see all options on the table but now that opposition has been pitched, I can actually consider it and really think about whether we still need the original option in spite of it or not. I've come to the conclusion that we don't. If Honkai Impact 3rd can detach its costumes, I think Honkai: Star Rail can as well. We already have precedent: March 7th (Nascent Spring) doesn't imply March 7th (Preservation). This implication was made long before we knew it would be a type-locked costume and we didn't vote to reimplicate it even after we got that knowledge.
So my proposal for Dan Heng (Lurking) is to just accept the way evazion wants it and imply it to his base. I can't think of a conceivable reason for needing it to be separate besides conventionality. Besides this, everything already implies his base anyway. At just 17 posts, it's just not significant enough. Ask a random person and he's effectively just his base appearance plus horns since a merger of all his forms with his base form having the heaviest weight was the design inspiration for Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae). Plus the tag name is already in a format ready for base tag implication.
Thoughts? I don't think this should be contentious enough to move it to a separate topic.
WRS said:
Thoughts? I don't think this should be contentious enough to move it to a separate topic.
My thought is the same as previous. There's no reason to exclude this costume from the search for Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail), and not implying Dan Heng (Lurking) (Honkai: Star Rail) to it is just going to result in people applying both tags manually (and accurately), as has been done all the time the BUR has been pending.
This is an absolutely straightforward official alternate costume of an official alternate form, and the way that's handled for every other single example I know of on Danbooru is a three-tier hierarchy. It's seems silly to me that we're debating this when Artoria Pendragon (Fate) exists.
Look at the wiki for Artoria Pendragon (Fate) though. How many of them are actually properly, significantly different characters that deserve to be split up? It's not a complete picture: there are several Saberfaces that are split out, like Mordred (Fate). This was a tag that was recently looked at by the builder handling it and figuring out if the huge umbrella needed to exist or if some of it could be deconstructed. It might exist but that doesn't mean it's correct. It's just that no one's had the time to sort through it and because it's an incredibly old tag, admins find it more trouble than its worth to break its current convention. It's been used as an example of where tagging is subpar before. Mostly one person has been going through and deconstructing or improving the tagging and hierarchies of all its character tags. Honkai: Star Rail is easy to handle with few costumes and being a newer copyright.
If the costumes were to exist on the same level, then the right way to handle their tagging is to not tag both: one tag per unique appearance. This is the approach I've taken with Honkai Impact 3rd recently as I mentioned in my long post because if you really think about it, the only argument here is really only about conventionality reasons. I think there is value in seriously considering our structures, even if they seem "straightforward".
See tag implication hierarchies for:
I understand if I can't open up a different possibility in spite of all things said though and will just wait to see where the wind blows.
Updated by WRS
The problem is that it can't just be one tag per unique appearance, because character tags do triple duty as actual in-story identity, form, and costume. Every Dan Heng (Lurking) (Honkai: Star Rail) post is also a Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail) post (absent currently non-existent self cosplay which is by convention tagged with both forms anyway) because the parent tag represents the form, not the costume. And that's exactly what implications are for.
The tag can't just be made into a pure costume tag, because the form can wear other outfits (or be nude). If post #9983053 or post #10123230 should be tagged Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail), so should post #9997518. If those shouldn't be tagged Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail) then we're just making it impossible to find those kind of posts.
The purpose of tagging is to make searching easy. If I'm looking for Permansor Terrae, I want to see the Lurking costume also, the same as if I'm searching for Firefly (Honkai: Star Rail) I want to see Firefly (Spring Missive) (Honkai: Star Rail) also or any other costume tag. Finding the default costume can be annoying when the percentage of alternates gets too high, but the solution to that is to tag the default costume when it gets to that point, not to remove the implication.
WRS said:
This is a completely different scenario because March 7th (Preservation) (Honkai: Star Rail) is just a costume tag for March's default form. The fact that in gameplay the Nascent Spring costume is for the Preservation unit is irrelevant; they're both just different outfits where the character is visually identical except for the clothing.
I'm not very familiar with the other copyrights, but most of those look the same kind of thing to me at a glance.
Tags should not be performing that many roles at once, and compounding that together is the result of this predicament, as well as the pain of searching characters across copyrights. If the implication was as straightforward as you believe, then the BUR would not be stuck in limbo for a month while other implications get accepted. Evidently this means that whatever reasoning we're approaching this with is not sufficient or justifiable enough to get the implication plainly accepted. ETA: See forum #388418 for extra reading.
For imageboard purposes, tags and their implication structures do not need to match exactly at the source. Just "because" the game represents it one way, it doesn't mean our tags do either. A search for Sam (Honkai: Star Rail) is a search for Firefly (Honkai: Star Rail) but they aren't implicated. A search for Herrscher of Sentience is broadly a search for Fu Hua but they aren't implicated. A search for Void Archives is a search for Otto Apocalypse but they aren't implicated.
When I discussed implications at length with evazion, we also do need to consider people who don't have a single clue about what these things are about. Story and whatnot cannot be the sole justification, it has to be a helper justification. Tags are primarily for searching and that also means appearance has to be considered. Using tags as "identity" is what led to a garbage four-tier implication for Luna (Honkai Impact) that made it impossible to search for just her because I was also getting results for Theresa Apocalypse (Luna Kindred) and Theresa Apocalypse, many of whose posts I have blacklisted because of a certain censored tag.
The tag can't just be made into a pure costume tag, because the form can wear other outfits (or be nude). If post #9983053 or post #10123230 should be tagged Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail), so should post #9997518. If those shouldn't be tagged Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail) then we're just making it impossible to find those kind of posts.
For the first part, you would just use the base appearance tag, because Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail) nude can't be Dan Heng (Lurking) (Honkai: Star Rail). There is no unique difference to be able to tag it. For Dan Heng (Lurking) (Honkai: Star Rail), "Permansor Terrae" should be one of the qualifiers if it needs to be findable.
The purpose of tagging is to make searching easy.
It doesn't take away from the searchability. Dan Heng (Hunt) (Honkai: Star Rail) is only for the appearance with the 4-star outfit but we don't tag it on every non-Imbibitor Lunae post. If this was the logic, then Dan Heng (Feast) (Honkai: Star Rail) and the other costumes should be implied to Dan Heng (Hunt) (Honkai: Star Rail) and it should be renamed something like "Dan Heng (Default)" but that's not the case. So you see what I mean by the justification becomes weaker when you can't apply the same reasoning of one to another?
the same as if I'm searching for Firefly (Honkai: Star Rail) I want to see Firefly (Spring Missive) (Honkai: Star Rail) also or any other costume tag.
This is a false equivalence. Firefly (Honkai: Star Rail) has no alternate forms or uniquely different appearances. No one would or should argue for reimplicating Firefly (Spring Missive) (Honkai: Star Rail) because there's nothing to otherwise imply it to in the first place. That implication makes sense and is two levels of implications. If you needed a better example, you could've said Herta (Honkai: Star Rail) but even then the difference between Herta (Puppet) (Honkai: Star Rail) and The Herta (Honkai: Star Rail) is much more significant than the differences between Dan Heng (Honkai: Star Rail)'s which is why evazion says they look the same to him. You need to prove they're different enough to get him to agree with the implication. Because we haven't, it's not getting accepted. Talk to him, not to me. I'm just here to provide alternate perspective.
This is a completely different scenario because March 7th (Preservation) (Honkai: Star Rail) is just a costume tag for March's default form. The fact that in gameplay the Nascent Spring costume is for the Preservation unit is irrelevant; they're both just different outfits where the character is visually identical except for the clothing.
Is it really completely different? You're saying that this connection is irrelevant, but that the connection for Dan Heng (Honkai: Star Rail)'s isn't. Even to me who plays Hoyoverse games considerably religiously and knows the worldbuilding in a pretty detailed manner, it's the same guy to me too. The difference can be merely relegated to Chinese clothes and horns. It's the same guy throughout with just a few extra details added on top.
We treat March 7th (Preservation) (Honkai: Star Rail) as her default form; then everything presently under "Non-playable costumes" should be implicated to it to separate those costumes out from anything that adapts a different playable form, or even from Evernight (Honkai: Star Rail). They aren't.
Updated by WRS
search user here i find it clunky to have to type (firefly_(honkai:_star_rail) or sam_(honkai:_star_rail)) randomtags (and this is also userlevel privilege)
Updated by tamuraakemi
If you're interested more broadly about jumpstarting that discussion again, check out topic #28181. Funny enough the discussion regarding the implication started mostly because the main gardener for yuri had trouble determining what tags to apply when it came to Sam (Honkai: Star Rail). It wasn't approved due to potential spoiler reasons and then we had other non-Firefly "SAMs" that if I recall correctly ended up also using the tag.
There's also the question of reconciling people who want to find both with one tag, or people who strictly only want one or the other having their search results polluted if the implication were to be made.
To me, the key question is what is the scope of Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail) and what should be tagged with it. Either:
1. The tag represents the form of Dan Heng in post #9956181 with yellow horns, pointy ears, and dragon tail .
2. The tag represents the clothing worn by Dan Heng in post #9956181
1 is how everyone has been naturally using the tag and similar tags like Dan Heng (Imbibitor Lunae) (Honkai: Star Rail) are used, and in that case Dan Heng (Lurking) (Honkai: Star Rail) should straightforwardly imply Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail), but then we have a three-tier hierarchy.
2 would mean the implication is invalid and we only need two tiers of implications, but posts of the form without the outfit should have the tag removed and will need constant gardening because it's not how people naturally think the tag should be used.
post #9983053 , post #10123230 , and post #10019364 all clearly share a distinct, taggable visual appearance of Dan Heng that someone might want to search for that's shared with post #9956181, but is clearly not in something like post #7462544 , let alone post #6722540. If Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail) isn't the tag for that appearance, people are going to constantly try to turn it into one.
WRS said:
When I discussed implications at length with evazion, we also do need to consider people who don't have a single clue about what these things are about. Story and whatnot cannot be the sole justification, it has to be a helper justification. Tags are primarily for searching and that also means appearance has to be considered.
I agree with this completely, but where I lose the thread is why this argues against the implication. Dan Heng (Lurking) (Honkai: Star Rail) has no story! The implication to Permansor Terrae is based solely on the appearance.
If there was no tag for Lurking, every post of it would be easily tagged as Permansor Terrae and no one would blink. The proposal to not imply the tags makes tagging require more copyright specific knowledge, not less, because if you don't recognize the Lurking costume it just looks like Permansor Terrae in an alternate costume but now tagging that is wrong instead of being still correct but just missing the specific costume tag.
WRS said:
We treat March 7th (Preservation) (Honkai: Star Rail) as her default form
We don't treat March 7th (Preservation) (Honkai: Star Rail) as her default form. If we did every non-Evernight nude March post should be tagged with it, and Nascent Spring would need an implication to it. We treat it as a tag for the specific costume only (i.e., like option 2 above).
If we must limit to a two-tier hierarchy, I would argue the least valuable tag is the top level Dan Heng (Honkai: Star Rail) itself. That's the story-based "identity" tag that merges together a bunch of appearances that could look like different characters if you don't know the lore.
So we could do something like:
But I think that's strictly worse than just doing the three-tier hierarchy.
Updated by nonemouse
Guess I should've started a new topic, I didn't think it would be this contentious even for one person. Protracted discussions aren't great to have in megathreads. We're already here though so it should just be finished all up.
forum #388418 and the examples in forum #395777 are important. They look the same to you, they have two levels of implications (note Alpha (PGR)). Dan Heng (Honkai: Star Rail) looks the same in all of them. We're asking for three. Something important to remember is that evazion doesn't see the same thing we see.
To me, the key question is what is the scope of Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail) and what should be tagged with it.
..
I agree with this completely, but where I lose the thread is why this argues against the implication. Dan Heng (Lurking) (Honkai: Star Rail) has no story! The implication to Permansor Terrae is based solely on the appearance.
post #9956181 because that's the appearance in its entirety. This, alternate costumes and nude use this tag by default. Then if there is a uniquely different appearance, it gets a tag that lives beside it.
To evazion he's seeing something like "it's all Dan Heng and two of his costumes just happen to have horns but I don't see why that should mean they should implicate each other" (forum #389086). Neither the tag nor the wiki show why they should be implicated, and honestly his appearance itself doesn't help either when he looks like the same person anyway. It's not a significant visual difference like Theresa Apocalypse is to Luna (Honkai Impact). dan_heng + tail + horns. Usually this isn't supposed to be enough to get implications. It strongly depends.
We don't treat March 7th (Preservation) (Honkai: Star Rail) as her default form.
You said we do, and then now say we don't. 
In any case: March 7th (Honkai: Star Rail)'s tags are a perfect example of tags being used right in current practice. Regardless of Evernight (Lurking) (Honkai: Star Rail)'s current status of being stuck in approval limbo, we know March 7th (Honkai: Star Rail) refers to the pink-haired poster girl of Honkai: Star Rail. Every one of her tags refers to one unique appearance and directly implies her base character tag; that is, anything to do with March 7th (Honkai: Star Rail) implies her base character tag. Evernight (Honkai: Star Rail) is visually different (poorly shown in the wiki).
The reason why I said all that about "March 7th (Preservation) (Honkai: Star Rail) is default" is because realistically speaking, all the outfits are built with that appearance - hairstyle, eyes, hair length - in mind, so if we were to approach it completely textually and using the same logic to try and get the Dan Heng (Lurking) (Honkai: Star Rail) implication, it would be inconsistent with how we use tags for other characters. Notice we don't though because yes, as you already said, we don't care that March 7th (Nascent Spring) (Honkai: Star Rail) is only for March 7th (Preservation) (Honkai: Star Rail).
If we must limit to a two-tier hierarchy [..]
We don't. The reason it's not getting accepted though is because evazion isn't convinced that it needs to be subimplicated just because the game says so. It's a wiki and a tag use issue, so either Dan Heng (Lurking) (Honkai: Star Rail) needs to be implied to the base character tag, the second level of the hierarchy gets reworked or you need to provide a strong justification on why the implication should be accepted as-is.
You already saw what he said about it: because of the wiki and the example pictures, they all look like the same character in different costumes to him. Wikis and reasons need to actually show the difference to back the implication, which is why implications have a wiki requirement. Going through some of the other costume topics and looking through his wiki edits gives a better frame of reference into his thinking and what he's willing to accept or what he doesn't accept.
BUR #49988 has been rejected.
create implication evernight_(lurking)_(honkai:_star_rail) -> evernight_(honkai:_star_rail)
Submitting this one separately and updated the wiki to show the visual differences between the base character March 7th (Honkai: Star Rail) and Evernight (Honkai: Star Rail) (an implied form). I've realised out of four existing BURs to attempt this implication that are all stuck in limbo, the option to handle this independently was never given.
Protip: this is why one BUR should handle one character. The first (forum #388675) and second one (forum #389258) also handle Dan Heng (Honkai: Star Rail) and evazion doesn't currently agree with Dan Heng's implication and the third one (forum #391837) is still pending discussion or expiry. One line that an admin doesn't agree with can tank everything.
I don't want to drag this argument on forever, but I guess I just fundamentally don't agree with the take that "it's all Dan Heng and two of his costumes just happen to have horns". To my eyes, it's blindingly obvious that Dan Heng (Lurking) (Honkai: Star Rail) and Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail) share a distinct visual identity that's easily and objectively distinguishable from other forms of the character, that should be taggable. And I also believe just on a practical level that ruling that Lurking posts should not be tagged a Permansor Terrae is going to make tagging harder for people with less knowledge of the copyright, not easier.
I've updated the wikis for Dan Heng (Imbibitor Lunae) (Honkai: Star Rail) and Dan Heng (Permansor Terrae) (Honkai: Star Rail) with a few more words about the physical traits of the forms and how they're distinguished. We'll see if that changes evasion's opinion any.
WRS said:
You said we do, and then now say we don't.
My wording was unclear when I said "March 7th (Preservation) (Honkai: Star Rail) is just a costume tag for March's default form" and I apologize for that. A better way to word what I meant to say is:
"We don't treat March 7th (Preservation) (Honkai: Star Rail) as a tag for her default form, but just as a costume tag for a specific one of her default form's costumes."
That works for me. It's totally okay to agree to disagree; and I appreciate you also updating the wikis. In the future, my recommendation would be to make sure that the wikis are in order and completely show the relation you want to model out as that usually helps in showing the visual differences and which direction for implications should be taken. Just look at any newly adjusted Fate (Series) characters' wikis and see that "common visual differences" are grouped together as headers. Same with any Honkai Impact 3rd character that still follows a three-level hierarchy. As much as we can discuss or disagree, the ultimate goal should be to show admins that the implication has value.
FWIW: The main wiki is the more important wiki to show this in and should be the one that gets updated. See Herta (Honkai: Star Rail).
BUR #50088 has been approved by @evazion.
create implication stelle_(chimerric_park)_(honkai:_star_rail) -> stelle_(honkai:_star_rail)
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