Touhou LostWord Implication Update

BUR #24274 has been rejected.

Alright, so speaking of Touhou gachas, the Lost Word implications is due for an update. A lengthy, lengthy update. This specific BUR contains all the alternate universe versions of the Touhous the game revolves around.

BUR #24277 has been rejected.

First half of the costumes. Dear lord, there are so many costumes...

BUR #24278 has been rejected.

Second part...

BUR #24279 has been rejected.

And last one. Phew!

I've always viewed the Touhou LostWord costume tags as the perfect example of the maximalist approach in regards to costume/skin tag creation. A debate that surrounds costume tags generally is "at what point do you start tagging them?". Does a character whose post count fall under a single page and is only represented in the form of official art really need costume tags for each official costume that had been uploaded via said official art? The maximalist would say, yes, they do.

While not exactly the same, you could ask a similar question here. How many of the Touhou characters here, when searching them under Touhou Lost Word, actually give that many results that warrant giving the vast majority of these costumes a tag? How many of them actually go beyond just being official art depictions? How many of the Other Names listed in their wikis actually garner results on Twitter, Pixiv, etc? And that's not even asking if they're unambiguous either.

This is where the maximalist approach takes you, tagging a costume not because there would be a use gained from being able to search for it (which is why we started tagging them in the first place), but because it can be tagged and for tagging's sake it will be tagged.

BUR #24281 has been rejected.

And last but not least, the ones involving official alternate costumes seen in official Touhou games. Now these probably should require a bit of deliberation before we go approving implications all willy-nilly. So basically, my plan was basically:

• In the case of costumes covered by group tags the kourindou tengu costumes, I'll just implicate those to their respective characters as normal. This does result in Choujuu Gigaku implications that perhaps run the risk of running outside their scope of Touhou Lost Word, so that might be something worth thinking over.

• In the cases of ones obviously just the Lost Word version of the official costume, I'll go ahead and implicate those to the costume in question.

*And Finally, in the case of Aya's newboy costume in this game...Well, the wiki page for Lost Word just redirects to Shameimaru Aya (Newsboy), and searching it with Touhou Lost Word results in effectively no difference, so I'll just alias the official name for the Lost Word ver to Shameimaru Aya (Newsboy) for safekeeping.

Please do let me know if I miss any costumes or make any mistakes. This is...Kinda huge. Oops. But it was needed.

Damian0358 said:

I've always viewed the Touhou LostWord costume tags as the perfect example of the maximalist approach in regards to costume/skin tag creation. A debate that surrounds costume tags generally is "at what point do you start tagging them?". Does a character whose post count fall under a single page and is only represented in the form of official art really need costume tags for each official costume that had been uploaded via said official art? The maximalist would say, yes, they do.

While not exactly the same, you could ask a similar question here. How many of the Touhou characters here, when searching them under Touhou Lost Word, actually give that many results that warrant giving the vast majority of these costumes a tag? How many of them actually go beyond just being official art depictions? How many of the Other Names listed in their wikis actually garner results on Twitter, Pixiv, etc? And that's not even asking if they're unambiguous either.

This is where the maximalist approach takes you, tagging a costume not because there would be a use gained from being able to search for it (which is why we started tagging them in the first place), but because it can be tagged and for tagging's sake it will be tagged.

It's a very good question, honestly. Especially since many of these tags have only the official art for the game in them. Is that enough to justify the tag's existence then? I personally do feel like there might be a use in having them (and not from an overtagging standpoint, but from looking at the ones that have more than just that), not to mention with the exceptions of the official inspired ones, many of them are quite unique. However, the vast majority of costume tags are just the official art and nothing more. Which I suppose does beckon the question.

I agree if they exist they need to be implicated, so I agree with this BUR.

Now if they should exist is the question. There are some like kirisame_marisa_(witch_of_scarlet_dreams) which have a fair bit of fanart and they justify the tag, but I struggle to see the point in a single post tag for a character when I search of character + official art brings it up.

Maiden_in_Orange said:

It's a very good question, honestly. Especially since many of these tags have only the official art for the game in them. Is that enough to justify the tag's existence then? I personally do feel like there might be a use in having them (and not from an overtagging standpoint, but from looking at the ones that have more than just that), not to mention with the exceptions of the official inspired ones, many of them are quite unique. However, the vast majority of costume tags are just the official art and nothing more. Which I suppose does beckon the question.

Well, it's a foregone conclusion on whose stance wins in this situation: it's that of the maximalists. Everyone that isn't a maximalist on the issue (or against costume tagging in general) always gets caught up on what 'common sense' elements should be put in place for costume tagging, which inevitably falls into arguing over personal stances on the issue, ultimately resulting in nothing standardized, nothing tagged (which isn't conductive to ensuring proper costume tagging). As a result, the maximalists can waddle in, go "tag it when it is represented in a post" and leave, and so a flood of costume tags ensues (with some folks even going as far as uploading official art specifically to tag the costume in it).

Let's take a practical example - EM-2 (Girls' Frontline). She has 18 posts total, and 2 costume tags. The first has 3 posts, two official art, one fanart. The other has 5 posts, 4 official art, one fanart. She's a fairly niche character in the series she is from, at least relative to the actual popular characters. In this scenario, I would personally say there is no reason for any costumes to be tagged, because they don't make it easier to find them, because everything is already on one page with her tag. But then you have other fellow 'common sense' arguments emerging in favor of tagging, such as "the costume has at least one piece of fanart, so it's fair game, especially when she has more than one alt costume", "another costume in the costume set this belongs in has a tag, and is represented on some of the official art that her costume is in, so it's only fair to give her costume a tag too", "you never know if a character will blow up or not because one artist or one user/commissioner becomes obsessed with them", "creating a tag might inspire folks to look for more art of said costume to upload on Danbooru", etc.

And then, because of the arguing, no resolution is reached, no sitewide standards reached, discussion dies down, people forget to resolve the issue, and then if it gets to a point where a costume tag makes sense to make, the tagger in question might get cold feet because they aren't sure whether or not it is appropriate to make a tag. It all ultimately results in no tag getting made. The maximalist stance ensures a tag gets made, for better or worse, and then from there each copyright on Danbooru copes with its own individual stances built on top of that (ex. GFL skin tagging standardized on waiting for the official English name to drop before making a tag, while Azur Lane, Arknights, FEH, etc. have varying standards on the permissibility of fan-translated names or nicknames due to higher post activity necessitating tags sooner).

There's probably more points I've forgotten from past discussions on this, whether here on the forum or on the Discord server, but it all ultimately leads to the maximalist stance being the preferred stance - which brings us to here, with the LostWord costumes.

Damian0358 said:

Well, it's a foregone conclusion on whose stance wins in this situation: it's that of the maximalists. Everyone that isn't a maximalist on the issue (or against costume tagging in general) always gets caught up on what 'common sense' elements should be put in place for costume tagging, which inevitably falls into arguing over personal stances on the issue, ultimately resulting in nothing standardized, nothing tagged (which isn't conductive to ensuring proper costume tagging). As a result, the maximalists can waddle in, go "tag it when it is represented in a post" and leave, and so a flood of costume tags ensues (with some folks even going as far as uploading official art specifically to tag the costume in it).

Let's take a practical example - EM-2 (Girls' Frontline). She has 18 posts total, and 2 costume tags. The first has 3 posts, two official art, one fanart. The other has 5 posts, 4 official art, one fanart. She's a fairly niche character in the series she is from, at least relative to the actual popular characters. In this scenario, I would personally say there is no reason for any costumes to be tagged, because they don't make it easier to find them, because everything is already on one page with her tag. But then you have other fellow 'common sense' arguments emerging in favor of tagging, such as "the costume has at least one piece of fanart, so it's fair game, especially when she has more than one alt costume", "another costume in the costume set this belongs in has a tag, and is represented on some of the official art that her costume is in, so it's only fair to give her costume a tag too", "you never know if a character will blow up or not because one artist or one user/commissioner becomes obsessed with them", "creating a tag might inspire folks to look for more art of said costume to upload on Danbooru", etc.

And then, because of the arguing, no resolution is reached, no sitewide standards reached, discussion dies down, people forget to resolve the issue, and then if it gets to a point where a costume tag makes sense to make, the tagger in question might get cold feet because they aren't sure whether or not it is appropriate to make a tag. It all ultimately results in no tag getting made. The maximalist stance ensures a tag gets made, for better or worse, and then from there each copyright on Danbooru copes with its own individual stances built on top of that (ex. GFL skin tagging standardized on waiting for the official English name to drop before making a tag, while Azur Lane, Arknights, FEH, etc. have varying standards on the permissibility of fan-translated names or nicknames due to higher post activity necessitating tags sooner).

There's probably more points I've forgotten from past discussions on this, whether here on the forum or on the Discord server, but it all ultimately leads to the maximalist stance being the preferred stance - which brings us to here, with the LostWord costumes.

Then perhaps a solution to this issue would be standardized rules for alt costumes? Like "This costume needs X amount of posts before it becomes implicate-able (or even taggable)?" Because to me, it seems the problem here is the "what ifs" that we tend to get caught up in. Because "common sense" appears to dictate "even just one official artwork is enough"...Even when we never go beyond that one post. Which is a problem, especially if we deem the maximalist approach inadequate. If we had standardized rules regarding that, it would make it easier to sort which is necessary to have a tag for from which is unnecessary (like your example of EM-2 (Girls' Frontline) or perhaps the vast majority of costumes in the BURs that make up the topic of this thread).

Of course, and unfortunately, as these conversations tend to, how? I can say standardized rules are desired all I want, but what would that look like in practice? Would it even be enforceable, in the end? Or perhaps it would vary by individual copyright, as these tags tend to as you pointed out? Could we even get people to agree on them at all, I wonder? I have a sinking feeling that is more wishful thinking than anything doable, but there has to be a solution to this issue out there, right?

Maiden_in_Orange said:

Then perhaps a solution to this issue would be standardized rules for alt costumes? If we had standardized rules regarding that, it would make it easier to sort which is necessary to have a tag for from which is unnecessary. Of course, and unfortunately, as these conversations tend to, how?

I can say standardized rules are desired all I want, but what would that look like in practice? Would it even be enforceable, in the end? Or perhaps it would vary by individual copyright, as these tags tend to as you pointed out? Could we even get people to agree on them at all, I wonder? I have a sinking feeling that is more wishful thinking than anything doable, but there has to be a solution to this issue out there, right?

I'm telling you this after there have been attempted discussions to make standardized rules for alt costumes. happening on and off over the course of the last five years. No one could agree on standards. That's why I said it was a foregone conclusion on whose stance would win, and that's the stance of the maximalists, because they have the simplest approach that guarantees a tag gets made.

Everyone else (excluding the anti-costume tag crowd) is unable to get a good set of standards introduced on a base level before we get into specific copyrights (ignoring those who introduce standard proposals that are heavily slanted towards the standards of a particular copyright). Discussion stalls, nothing gets decided, no tags get made. And as it has become increasingly apparent over the past five years that costume character tags are not only here to stay, but here to proliferate, the standard that ensures something gets tagged ends up taking priority if nothing else is available. It's a maximalist win by default.

If a solution exists, it has to be led by a dedicated user/group that wants a standard to be implemented that isn't wholly maximalist. But most users, especially outside the discussion. don't care about the details, they just want to know if they can make a tag or not. And the maximalist says "yeah, go ahead".

Maiden_in_Orange said:

BUR #24279 has been rejected.

Show

create implication eternity_larva_(worm_moon_swallowtail) -> eternity_larva
create implication sakata_nemuno_(small_restaurant_chef) -> sakata_nemuno
create implication sakata_nemuno_(white_classic_of_the_mountain) -> sakata_nemuno
create implication komano_aunn_(busy_at_new_year's) -> komano_aunn
create implication nishida_satono_(the_all-too-dark_backup_dancers) -> nishida_satono
create implication teireida_mai_(the_all-too-dark_backup_dancers) -> teireida_mai
create implication matara_okina_(student_leader_behind_the_scenes) -> matara_okina
create implication matara_okina_(good_evening_from_the_back_door) -> matara_okina
create implication matara_okina_(god_of_the_dressing_room) -> matara_okina
create implication ushizaki_urumi_(bunny_sanzu_river_guard) -> ushizaki_urumi
create implication niwatari_kutaka_(crispy_chicken_delivery) -> niwatari_kutaka
create implication kicchou_yachie_(teenage_tortoise) -> kicchou_yachie
create implication kicchou_yachie_(world's_most_beautiful_shell) -> kicchou_yachie
create implication joutouguu_mayumi_(ceramic_bunny_rookie) -> joutouguu_mayumi
create implication kurokoma_saki_(famed_horse's_harmony) -> kurokoma_saki
create implication kurokoma_saki_(strong-legged_gift_horse) -> kurokoma_saki
create implication toutetsu_yuuma_(all-you-can-devour_banquet) -> toutetsu_yuuma
create implication yamashiro_takane_(forest_fried_rice_delivery) -> yamashiro_takane
create implication komakusa_sannyo_(bunny_rainbow_dragon_cave_guard) -> komakusa_sannyo
create implication tamatsukuri_misumaru_(capsule_toy_goddess) -> tamatsukuri_misumaru
create implication tenkyuu_chimata_(the_competitive_end-of-year_market_has_begun) -> tenkyuu_chimata
create implication himemushi_momoyo_(worm_moon_centipede) -> himemushi_momoyo

And last one. Phew!

I salute to anyone even attempting to do such thankless task as trying to BUR skins

Damian0358 said:

I'm telling you this after there have been attempted discussions to make standardized rules for alt costumes. happening on and off over the course of the last five years. No one could agree on standards. That's why I said it was a foregone conclusion on whose stance would win, and that's the stance of the maximalists, because they have the simplest approach that guarantees a tag gets made.

Everyone else (excluding the anti-costume tag crowd) is unable to get a good set of standards introduced on a base level before we get into specific copyrights (ignoring those who introduce standard proposals that are heavily slanted towards the standards of a particular copyright). Discussion stalls, nothing gets decided, no tags get made. And as it has become increasingly apparent over the past five years that costume character tags are not only here to stay, but here to proliferate, the standard that ensures something gets tagged ends up taking priority if nothing else is available. It's a maximalist win by default.

If a solution exists, it has to be led by a dedicated user/group that wants a standard to be implemented that isn't wholly maximalist. But most users, especially outside the discussion. don't care about the details, they just want to know if they can make a tag or not. And the maximalist says "yeah, go ahead".

Ah I see. Yeah, I very much haven't been around for that, and that's about what I should've expected in hindsight. I suppose there's nothing left to do but wait to see the end results of this BUR. Hopefully, such a user or group can come along one day, but for now, I'll just wait to see what one of the admins has to say about this discussion.

As someone who already proposed mima (highly responsive to prayers) and kirisame marisa (story of eastern wonderland) (both oficial designs that differs from the usual ones) and got good reasons to not do so, I would say to alias or even nuke n' deprecate all those variations, or at least the ones which have less than a page of content as one way or another those posts could be reachable from touhou lost word + character name without much hussle

I'll still wait what the admins has to say about this discussion

I'd like @evazion's opinion on this because it seems like a hidden can of worms.

This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.

This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 45 days.

The bulk update request #24274 (forum #272628) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.

This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 45 days.