In addition to the detailed breakdown above on the last page, it's worth noting that although modern definitions currently perform better in terms of upvote percentage, there's far fewer people actively voting on them. The 2010-2017 definition currently has 13,048 votes, while the most popular modern definition has 2,175.
URL-searching "trap" on the remains of Chanarchive pulls up loads of trans women as well... if anyone feels up to looking at ancient /b/tard posts. (No images, but NSFW text.) I don't know if you could definitively say which board started posting "trap" first, but at the very least, /b/ was the one with the most leverage over internet culture.
This spilled over into Danbooru pretty early on, with Nitori Shuuichi and Mariandale (off the top of my head) initially getting tagged as traps despite being textually trans. We have since handled a number of canon trans characters' presence in the tag on a case-by-case basis. It probably goes without saying, though, that we've never gone out and passed a rule stating that being trans disqualifies someone from being in the tag.
The trans panic defense is used to justify murder under the claim of deception. It doesn’t need to go as far as rape (the last two cases in the Wikipedia page definitely don’t), and most of those listed in the Wikipedia article don’t. Even the one that does involves unjustifiable use of force (and I’m also confused how three people didn’t notice their partner had a penis). But things like flirting with a transgender person you didn’t know is trans like in that last case isn’t rape. Not even close.
Fair. I made the assumption based on the name of the wiki linked. Murder is not justified for finding out a person you like is trans ether btw. I was thinking more of rape by deception which is a real thing, but not necessarily by a person being trans. I.E A person lies about something in order to have sex with another person who would not have otherwise agreed to it.
I do however feel you should absolutely tell someone you are trans that's an important detail about your identity, and how the person you like reacts will reflect their character.
However, regardless of this, Trap in terms of anime/manga has nothing to do with IRL trans identity, or sexual orientation.
In addition to the detailed breakdown above on the last page, it's worth noting that although modern definitions currently perform better in terms of upvote percentage, there's far fewer people actively voting on them. The 2010-2017 definition currently has 13,048 votes, while the most popular modern definition has 2,175.
URL-searching "trap" on the remains of Chanarchive pulls up loads of trans women as well... if anyone feels up to looking at ancient /b/tard posts. (No images, but NSFW text.) I don't know if you could definitively say which board started posting "trap" first, but at the very least, /b/ was the one with the most leverage over internet culture.
This spilled over into Danbooru pretty early on, with Nitori Shuuichi and Mariandale (off the top of my head) initially getting tagged as traps despite being textually trans. We have since handled a number of canon trans characters' presence in the tag on a case-by-case basis. It probably goes without saying, though, that we've never gone out and passed a rule stating that being trans disqualifies someone from being in the tag.
The fact that this board's staff recognizes the unequivocally transphobic history of the word and explicitly does not disqualify trans girls from the tag makes the current decision to change it from otokonoko to this look doubly transphobic.
If the staff recognizes that the bulk of the earliest recorded history of the word is explicitly to misgender trans women directly, outside of the context of anime, then it would seem like more deliberation would be warranted. If the word genuinely refers to boys and not girls, fully aware of the difference between male body and trans gender, then you'd think there would be a strict rule against tagging new Bridget art by the minute as a non-transgender boy, [especially when it's from artists](post #9470697) who recognize Bridget as a girl.
As it is, it looks like the worst of both worlds. You seem to be acknowledging the transphobic history of the word and using it anyway without addressing it, *and* you're implicitly endorsing the willful cis-gendering of highly contentious textually trans girls. If we're fully committed to the assertion that the term refers to boys and not girls at all, and that it's totally not just a body type eyeball that tags a lot of trans girls as "1boy", then we're saying that the decision to tag Bridget as 1boy in most of her uploads here -- post-Strive, when she's explicitly a girl -- is effectively a statement that this system sees her as a boy in gender and identity and not merely male in body type. Otokonoko at least has the plausible deniability of that latter, especially with Japanese pop culture re-evaluating having a strict distinction at all in the wake of Bridget in Strive.
The fact that this board's staff recognizes the unequivocally transphobic history of the word and explicitly does not disqualify trans girls from the tag makes the current decision to change it from otokonoko to this look doubly transphobic.
The user you're quoting isn't staff. Contributor-level users have no authority over how the site is run. And that user had suggested earlier in the thread that trap should not be on posts with trans girls.
kjx3600 said:
If the staff recognizes that the bulk of the earliest recorded history of the word is explicitly to misgender trans women directly, outside of the context of anime, then it would seem like more deliberation would be warranted. If the word genuinely refers to boys and not girls, fully aware of the difference between male body and trans gender, then you'd think there would be a strict rule against tagging new Bridget art by the minute as a non-transgender boy, [especially when it's from artists](post #9470697) who recognize Bridget as a girl.
As it is, it looks like the worst of both worlds. You seem to be acknowledging the transphobic history of the word and using it anyway without addressing it, *and* you're implicitly endorsing the willful cis-gendering of highly contentious textually trans girls. If we're fully committed to the assertion that the term refers to boys and not girls at all, and that it's totally not just a body type eyeball that tags a lot of trans girls as "1boy", then we're saying that the decision to tag Bridget as 1boy in most of her uploads here -- post-Strive, when she's explicitly a girl -- is effectively a statement that this system sees her as a boy in gender and identity and not merely male in body type. Otokonoko at least has the plausible deniability of that latter, especially with Japanese pop culture re-evaluating having a strict distinction at all in the wake of Bridget in Strive.
The gender tags refer to the character's physical body, not their gender identity. Our tags mainly focus on what you can actually see. If the physical evidence contradicts the character's gender identity, we tag according to the former.
However, there are a few limited exceptions. Current policy actually does recognize Bridget's transgender status and allows images of her (and theoretically, other transgender characters) to be tagged with 1girl if both of the following conditions are met:
There is visual evidence in the image explicitly referencing her transgender status.
There is no visual evidence of her being physically male.
Some users believe only the second criterion should apply, which would make SFW posts 1girl by default, since when fully clothed, you shouldn't be able to discern her physical sex. But that is not enough on its own at the moment.
And while you were discussing trap instead of the gender tags, they are inextricably linked. It would not make sense to remove trap from a post of a trans girl if we're also tagging her as 1boy.
And while you were discussing trap instead of the gender tags, they are inextricably linked. It would not make sense to remove trap from a post of a trans girl if we're also tagging her as 1boy.
While the boy tag can be shrugged off as a technical inconvenience as "tagging by sex", a difference is that trap goes further, using a term designed to refer to deceitful male characters. It gives people more of a reason to attempt tagging Bridget as a girl so she is not slapped with the misleading "trap" tag.
If the mods are uncomfortable with the Bridget discussion being revived, then perhaps the otokonoko reversion in BUR #42868 should be accepted. Look at at the original otoko_no_ko -> trap request (BUR #40541)
+69 / -103
and compare this to the trap -> otokonoko request (BUR #42868):
+62 / -39
Nearly the same number of positive votes, with fewer than half of the original BUR's negative votes. Definitely showing a fairly positive reception to reverting the tag.
i'm late to this thread and just noticed the change. my 2c anyways
otoko no ko is less ambiguous because you can just use the tag from pixiv.
there is mouse_trap, bear_trap, trap_door, etc. and NORMALLY they would all imply TRAP but because TRAP means something else now we need trap_(trap) or something like that if you want a single tag for all actual traps. someone is probably going to tag one of these traps as just "trap" from now on because it's a real tag now and not an alias.
i don't buy the argument that "trap" is better because it's english because it isn't even english. it's a slang. you need to know the slang to know what it means. if u don't know it you just think it means an actual trap
if trap and femboy were literally the same thing we wouldn't have two separate words. so basically a lot of "trap" aren't even crossdressing or anything trapful they are just cute boys but cute_boy isn't a tag...
the problem is by the wiki's definition "the difference between girly_boy and trap is whether you can tell that the character is male without looking at the genitals. If you can, they're girly boy, otherwise they're a trap." so are we going to change totsuka_saika from trap to girly_boy for example? the japanese tag for trap is 男の娘 but for girly_boy it's オネエ. saika is obviously 男の娘 and not オネエ. feels like a pain in the ass to have to decide this for every single case and have to have these discussions when you could just say "let's just use the tag the japanese artist uses" and call it a day
btw as you can tell by my username i don't even think the term is offensive or anything i just don't think it's good tag to replace otoko_no_ko when you have all these nuances involved and otoko_no_ko already exists
i'm late to this thread and just noticed the change. my 2c anyways
otoko no ko is less ambiguous because you can just use the tag from pixiv.
there is mouse_trap, bear_trap, trap_door, etc. and NORMALLY they would all imply TRAP but because TRAP means something else now we need trap_(trap) or something like that if you want a single tag for all actual traps. someone is probably going to tag one of these traps as just "trap" from now on because it's a real tag now and not an alias.
Since the change we've seemed to only have one mistag that's been fixed on post #1024560, and it looks like that was added back in 2012 before the tag was moved in the first place. only took us 13 years to fix. other than it seems most removals of the tag are mostly brisket edit wars with the occasional other minor changes on trap vs androgynous vs girly boy.
the problem is by the wiki's definition "the difference between girly_boy and trap is whether you can tell that the character is male without looking at the genitals. If you can, they're girly boy, otherwise they're a trap." so are we going to change totsuka_saika from trap to girly_boy for example? the japanese tag for trap is 男の娘 but for girly_boy it's オネエ. saika is obviously 男の娘 and not オネエ. feels like a pain in the ass to have to decide this for every single case and have to have these discussions when you could just say "let's just use the tag the japanese artist uses" and call it a day
Tag what you see not what you know applies to translated tags, too. Just because an artist claims an artwork depicts one thing doesn't mean it's actually what's in the picture, especially with translation differences in various words and contexts. Just look at the recent discussion regarding skirk from genshin's apparent prostheses for an example of canon/word of god not always being the correct choice for how to tag.
btw as you can tell by my username i don't even think the term is offensive or anything i just don't think it's good tag to replace otoko_no_ko when you have all these nuances involved and otoko_no_ko already exists
Otoko no ko was the replacement for trap though. It's not like the tags existed separately before this BUR and were then merged together, trap was moved to otoko no ko and now it's been moved back. If the tags should be separated is another discussion that's sort of been touched on in some of the earlier pages of this thread but hasn't really gone much of anywhere in between all the... well... everything else.
Yes, and that's why trap should not be called otoko no ko. Half of those don't fit our definition.
https://www.pixiv.net/en/artworks/130296763 look at this one, this is just straight up a guy in a business suit. Adding this tag to these posts is straight up tag poisoning.
It looks pretty simple to me. People see otoko no ko in translated tags, they assume it's for any kind of skinny guy, they click the tag ignoring the wiki definition. If the tag was called trap it would have at least given them pause on tagging (assuming they're not a related tags spammer).
@nonamethanks the 男の娘 tag is basically everything from twink to femboy/trap now. i don't think it counts as tag poisoning because there is a reason it's being used... it's just not being used to mean "trap".
like... what would you prefer, have all of these ambiguous non-masculine-boy features in a single otoko_no_ko tag or let taggers decide if they should tag something girly_boy, cute_boy, skinny_boy, non-muscular_boy, or femboy for every single image?
like, ok, you can't tag the skinny boy "trap" but then you tag it what? nothing? how do you find skinny boys later? you tag it as skinny but then someone complains ur poisoning the skininy tag with chars that aren't even anorexic enough? smooth_boy then?
otoko_no_ko isn't perfect but it's at least searchable and shuts down this rabbit hole of tagging questions... or at least it should have...
You should familiarize yourself with the tags we actually have onk has always been intended for characters who are indistinguishable from girls, if they aren't they should be removed from the tag and placed in a more fitting tag. Girly boy is where most "femboys" would go as it's a male tomboy equivalent, androgynous would be for boys who might be more traditionally feminine like bishounen but are clearly male.
Otoko no ko was the replacement for trap though. It's not like the tags existed separately before this BUR and were then merged together, trap was moved to otoko no ko and now it's been moved back. If the tags should be separated is another discussion that's sort of been touched on in some of the earlier pages of this thread but hasn't really gone much of anywhere in between all the... well... everything else.
yeah what i meant was... i don't think "trap" is a replacement for "otoko no ko" because i think "otoko no ko" is like a superset of "trap."
Ylimegirl said:
Tag what you see not what you know applies to translated tags, too. Just because an artist claims an artwork depicts one thing doesn't mean it's actually what's in the picture, especially with translation differences in various words and contexts.
yeah but the problem is the artist isn't wrong. the character is an otoko_no_ko. the problem is we don't have an otoko_no_ko tag anymore. so basically if you tried to tag a pic from pixiv and you typed otoko_no_ko you would get "trap" as a suggestion. but if you tag it as trap u'll be tagging it wrong. so the result is you wouldn't tag it as otoko_no_ko OR as trap. you didn't get a girly_boy suggestion. there is no cute_boy. i'm not even sure what qualifies as bishounen to be honest. so the final outcome of this is that despite otoko_no_ko being a reasonably popular tag on pixiv some otoko_no_ko posts are simply going to get no equivalent tags on danbooru anymore since there is no tag that applies that taggers know about
zetsubousensei said:
You should familiarize yourself with the tags we actually have onk has always been intended for characters who are indistinguishable from girls, if they aren't they should be removed from the tag and placed in a more fitting tag. Girly boy is where most "femboys" would go as it's a male tomboy equivalent, androgynous would be for boys who might be more traditionally feminine like bishounen but are clearly male.
@nonamethanks the 男の娘 tag is basically everything from twink to femboy/trap now. i don't think it counts as tag poisoning because there is a reason it's being used... it's just not being used to mean "trap".
like... what would you prefer, have all of these ambiguous non-masculine-boy features in a single otoko_no_ko tag or let taggers decide if they should tag something girly_boy, cute_boy, skinny_boy, non-muscular_boy, or femboy for every single image?
like, ok, you can't tag the skinny boy "trap" but then you tag it what? nothing? how do you find skinny boys later? you tag it as skinny but then someone complains ur poisoning the skininy tag with chars that aren't even anorexic enough? smooth_boy then?
otoko_no_ko isn't perfect but it's at least searchable and shuts down this rabbit hole of tagging questions... or at least it should have...
That's an argument for separating otoko no ko from trap, not for switching the alias back. If the tags were separated, then otoko no ko could become an umbrella tag for trap, girly boy, etc. if that's how it's commonly used nowadays. NNT actually voiced support for separating the tags, but also pointed out that it would be too early to do so because users would need time to get used to using trap instead of otoko no ko.
Actually, we could just let the alias expire naturally. If no one uses otoko no ko for a couple years, that would be evidence enough that the alias wouldn't be needed.
Also, it is important to remember that Danbooru's tagging system is different from Pixiv's, and so are our tag definitions. The translated tags are useful for identifying artists, copyrights, and characters, but it's not reliable for anything descriptive. We wouldn't tag a teenage-looking character loli or shota even if they are tagged as such on Pixiv, for example.
It's been brought up earlier in this thread, but I think there should be an understanding that girly boy was intended to be used for characters like Nathan Seymour or Scandinavia Peperoncino. IMO, it's not really intuitive to lump every single effeminate male archetype together instead of having a proper femboy tag.
It's been brought up earlier in this thread, but I think there should be an understanding that girly boy was intended to be used for characters like Nathan Seymour or Scandinavia Peperoncino. IMO, it's not really intuitive to lump every single effeminate male archetype together instead of having a proper femboy tag.
Do you think that the posts that have thus far been banished to girly boy should be spun-off to a femboy tag then, or do you think that might cause confusion with the main tag that'd theoretically be under the otokonoko parent tag and thus require a different name instead?
And on that note too, would girly boy even fall under the proposed otokonoko parent tag? I don't think the Japanese count it as such, if what you said in forum #362896 is correct.
Do you think that the posts that have thus far been banished to girly boy should be spun-off to a femboy tag then, or do you think that might cause confusion with the main tag that'd theoretically be under the otokonoko parent tag and thus require a different name instead?
And on that note too, would girly boy even fall under the proposed otokonoko parent tag? I don't think the Japanese count it as such, if what you said in forum #362896 is correct.
maybe the tag shouldn't be girly_boy but effeminate? like for feminine makeup/feminine poses like limp wrists etc.
maybe the tag shouldn't be girly_boy but effeminate? like for feminine makeup/feminine poses like limp wrists etc.
Tieria said:
I like effeminate and think it's a good solution, descriptive and accurate!
Are you two suggesting that the theoretical new tag for the posts banished to girly boy should be effeminate, or are you suggesting that girly boy be renamed to that? Because the latter is not what I was asking feline lump.
