I tried to place this bur on atf booru to aline with all other english boorus and it's not going over well.
Apparently trap is transphobic but I do not see how.
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jurassicparklionkingfan said:
I tried to place this bur on atf booru to aline with all other english boorus and it's not going over well.
Apparently trap is transphobic but I do not see how.
Well as a cis person disclaimer, here's my understanding.
If applied to real people, framing people who "look like women but are actually men" as being a "trap", that is, insinuating that they are trying to trick you in some way, is rhetoric that can lead to trans women being put in real danger a la trans panic defense. Because it turns out that transphobes see no difference between a cis man who wears a dress and a trans woman.
Of course, anime characters are fictional and therefore cannot be offended. But the problem is that some people can't distinguish reality from fiction, so many people fear that those who call anime boys traps are the same kind of people who may commit hate crimes. that or they're chasers (definition 11), which is not nearly as bad but still icky to many trans people since chasers don't see them as "real women", but rather a special kind of "not quite women"
There's also the fact that I'm positive many trans people find comfort in characters who appear this way and may even headcanon them as trans, which can quickly loop back around to some internet discourse conclusion jumping of "if you call this fictional character a man who I have headcanoned as a woman you are being transphobic to me, the real human person." Which is of course some gnarly disinterpreration but the internet has never been good for discourse, says person typing out an explanation of discourse on the internet.
TL;DR Astolfo has no emotions and doesn't care whether you call them a guy a girl or a trap, but real people have real emotions about the words you use to refer to them, especially ones that can have loaded implications.
jurassicparklionkingfan said:
Apparently trap is transphobic but I do not see how.
Been avoiding this thread but I feel I can follow on from above with a view from someone who crossdresses sometimes (male wearing traditonally female clothing), who has 100% confidence in his gender identity.
If I had the confidence to post a picture of myself online crossdressing and intentionally presenting myself as feminine in a way to bait people then I'd personally find comments of being called a trap fine and somewhat funny contextually. If a trans woman casually posted a picture of themselves in traditionally feminine clothing and someone called them a trap in the replies then they'd have a right to get annoyed due to the connotations trap has with real people, as Ylime described quite well above. I'd also similarly get annoyed at the person making such a comment unless I knew the OP was fine with it.
It's a case of certain transphobic individuals weaponising the word outside of the anime fandom that causes the issue imo and it's why we can't have nice things. I know there's plenty of male crossplayers who are or were fine with the word trap, at least until the negativity surrounding the word caused some people to be less accepting of it within their communities.
Apologies if anything I said didn't come across well, English is my first language.
Ylimegirl said:
While these are good observations, I’m sorry to say they don’t seem to support the anti-trap side very well.
If the very concept of “you thought he was a girl but he’s actually a boy” leads to harm when practiced in real life, then it would be more accurate to call the concept itself transphobic rather than the name. In that case, changing the name would not make it any less problematic. However, even if we accept the premise that the concept is inherently transphobic (I don’t, at least with fictional characters), it’s still a popular concept that needs a proper term to search for it. And if it’s not the name itself that is the problem, well…
It’s similar to how people against loli and shota aren’t against the terms so much as the concept of fictional underage porn and the belief it could lead to real pedophilia and the harm of real children, a belief this site has consistently stood against. Sure, there might be some transphobes that use it to reinforce their beliefs and harm others, but they likely already had that mindset going in. Most people using the word are completely harmless, and at worst may just not be as sensitive to trans issues as they should.
And yeah, the people complaining about characters being called traps simply because they headcanon them as trans don’t really have a leg to stand on. They should stick to characters actually confirmed to be trans if they want to be taken seriously.
Updated by Blank User
Blank_User said:
While these are good observations, I’m sorry to say they don’t seem to support the anti-trap side very well.
Never said they were. I've grown and changed as a person or whatever / logged off and touched grass, so I'm less invested in this than I was a month or so ago. Still think if the tag name is trap it should be removed from cosplay photo posts for sure though.
And yeah, the people complaining about characters being called traps simply because they headcanon them as trans don’t really have a leg to stand on. They should stick to characters actually confirmed to be trans if they want to be taken seriously.
I have seen some weird, weird and upsetting leaps in logic from people where their entire argument for online debates rests on the foundation of "this character is trans (source: me)" and will refuse to accept otherwise. And then of course the bonus fun round of being called transphobic for pointing that out.
Ylimegirl said:
Never said they were. I've grown and changed as a person or whatever / logged off and touched grass, so I'm less invested in this than I was a month or so ago. Still think if the tag name is trap it should be removed from cosplay photo posts for sure though.
Sure, I get that. It’s pretty much the same for me. It’s just that seeing the reasons why trap is considered offensive payed out helped me better understand why those arguments wouldn’t be sufficient to not use trap, though I’m sure others will try to actually use them as arguments to stop using it. Great reasoning for real life, not so much for Danbooru.
I have seen some weird, weird and upsetting leaps in logic from people where their entire argument for online debates rests on the foundation of "this character is trans (source: me)" and will refuse to accept otherwise. And then of course the bonus fun round of being called transphobic for pointing that out.
And this is why it’s hard to have a nuanced conversation about this. Unreasonable people make it harder for thoughtful opinions by others on their side to be taken seriously. Not to mention most people don’t want to be seen as supporting the use of slurs and might not push back hard enough against bad arguments. As much as this thread was compared to a train wreck, I actually felt the conversation was pretty constructive overall. I thought it would get much worse than this. It just goes to show how calm and stable most threads here are when something like this is considered out of control.
Ylimegirl said:
Well as a cis person disclaimer, here's my understanding.
If applied to real people, framing people who "look like women but are actually men" as being a "trap", that is, insinuating that they are trying to trick you in some way, is rhetoric that can lead to trans women being put in real danger a la trans panic defense. Because it turns out that transphobes see no difference between a cis man who wears a dress and a trans woman.
Of course, anime characters are fictional and therefore cannot be offended. But the problem is that some people can't distinguish reality from fiction, so many people fear that those who call anime boys traps are the same kind of people who may commit hate crimes. that or they're chasers (definition 11), which is not nearly as bad but still icky to many trans people since chasers don't see them as "real women", but rather a special kind of "not quite women"
There's also the fact that I'm positive many trans people find comfort in characters who appear this way and may even headcanon them as trans, which can quickly loop back around to some internet discourse conclusion jumping of "if you call this fictional character a man who I have headcanoned as a woman you are being transphobic to me, the real human person." Which is of course some gnarly disinterpreration but the internet has never been good for discourse, says person typing out an explanation of discourse on the internet.
TL;DR Astolfo has no emotions and doesn't care whether you call them a guy a girl or a trap, but real people have real emotions about the words you use to refer to them, especially ones that can have loaded implications.
If you unironically call a real person a trap you have lost the plot. Of course if you use the term to insulate a trans man dressing up as a women in order to tick a cis straight man, then yes, it's offensive. However that's a insanely incorrect use of the term.
Something a user on atf bright up:
"That has never been true. the whole "trap is transphobic" thing is a misconception started and spread by people outside the anime sphere who never understood its meaning. For starters, trap is a positive term used to refer to boys who are so pretty that they can pass as girls, so I find it hard to believe that it would be used to refer to predatory shemales. That reeks of a baseless assumption from people who heard the term and saw the characters it refers to and had the wrong idea."
Blank_User said:
While these are good observations, I’m sorry to say they don’t seem to support the anti-trap side very well.
If the very concept of “you thought he was a girl but he’s actually a boy” leads to harm when practiced in real life, then it would be more accurate to call the concept itself transphobic rather than the name. In that case, changing the name would not make it any less problematic. However, even if we accept the premise that the concept is inherently transphobic (I don’t, at least with fictional characters), it’s still a popular concept that needs a proper term to search for it. And if it’s not the name itself that is the problem, well…
It’s similar to how people against loli and shota aren’t against the terms so much as the concept of fictional underage porn and the belief it could lead to real pedophilia and the harm of real children, a belief this site has consistently stood against. Sure, there might be some transphobes that use it to reinforce their beliefs and harm others, but they likely already had that mindset going in. Most people using the word are completely harmless, and at worst may just not be as sensitive to trans issues as they should.
And yeah, the people complaining about characters being called traps simply because they headcanon them as trans don’t really have a leg to stand on. They should stick to characters actually confirmed to be trans if they want to be taken seriously.
That is a good point, atf is entirely loli and shota people get upset at use for the content we host. I've even told a moderator there who is against the BUR because they are concerned about backlash (I'm also a moderator) that no matter what we do people get upset based on the very theme of the booru. There appears change here causes blacklash too, but the admins here seem to at the very least not entertain the backlash because it seems never liked the term otoko no ko at all.
Updated by jurassicparklionkingfan
Ylimegirl said:
Never said they were. I've grown and changed as a person or whatever / logged off and touched grass, so I'm less invested in this than I was a month or so ago. Still think if the tag name is trap it should be removed from cosplay photo posts for sure though.
I have seen some weird, weird and upsetting leaps in logic from people where their entire argument for online debates rests on the foundation of "this character is trans (source: me)" and will refuse to accept otherwise. And then of course the bonus fun round of being called transphobic for pointing that out.
I'd agree that adding trap to cosplay photo is an insane thing to do.
Blank_User said:
Sure, I get that. It’s pretty much the same for me. It’s just that seeing the reasons why trap is considered offensive payed out helped me better understand why those arguments wouldn’t be sufficient to not use trap, though I’m sure others will try to actually use them as arguments to stop using it. Great reasoning for real life, not so much for Danbooru.
And this is why it’s hard to have a nuanced conversation about this. Unreasonable people make it harder for thoughtful opinions by others on their side to be taken seriously. Not to mention most people don’t want to be seen as supporting the use of slurs and might not push back hard enough against bad arguments. As much as this thread was compared to a train wreck, I actually felt the conversation was pretty constructive overall. I thought it would get much worse than this. It just goes to show how calm and stable most threads here are when something like this is considered out of control.
danbooru threads are very calm compared to some other sites I've been on that's for sure.
jurassicparklionkingfan said:
"... the whole "trap is transphobic" thing is a misconception started and spread by people outside the anime sphere who never understood its meaning. ..."
Part of the issue is that some people have (falsely) assumed that the term is related to the trans panic defense.
Akihi said:
Part of the issue is that some people have (falsely) assumed that the term is related to the trans panic defense.
which is nonsense because that's just rape.
jurassicparklionkingfan said:
Apparently trap is transphobic but I do not see how.
This word is different for different cultures/languages. While in anglosphere this word is heavily related to transphobia and homophobia in general, in slavic countries this word is more of a meme or a neutral/positive word. Perhaps it's because slavic people have much harsher words for transphobia (like, I never ever heard anyone in anglosphere dropping this common slavic slur) and the word's transformation into an insult simply didn't happen (or rather trap is not perceived as such) because harsh swear words are much more common than their counterparts.
Actually, in my language trap in general means a gangway and there's a slang "to trap" or "trapping" that means "to crossdress" or "to be a trap". In comparison, what trapping means in English is... too much, with a lot of negative connotations. No wonder why some people would find it transphobic especially if they aren't deep into subcultures.
Gardares said:
In comparison, what trapping means in English is... too much, with a lot of negative connotations. No wonder why some people would find it transphobic especially if they aren't deep into subcultures.
I think it's quite funny that I had to go to the second page of that link before seeing any definitions relevant to this topic, and every single one establishes a clear distinction between anime traps and transgenderism. It's almost like trap being a slur is tenuous at best, and is only believed to be so because some people unfamiliar with the culture it originated from assumed the worst of it.
Things like this probably wouldn't even be an issue if it wasn't so taboo to criticize and talk back to the LGBT+ community.
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=trap
It's the 5th post. It does not "establish a clear distinction between anime traps and transgenderism", those are 2 distinct, but very closely related meanings, approved 333:160 by the users.
blindVigil said:
...every single one establishes a clear distinction between anime traps and transgenderism...
That's the thing. The most powerful insult is an insult with slander. If you're a trap and somebody calling you a trap - that's what, that's just stating the fact even if people doing this in an offensive manner. The different thing is when you consider yourself (for example) a woman, but people tell you that you're just a trap, a man pretending to be a woman, they belittle you although you are no longer an egg and you're not thinking of yourself as a man. This doesn't feel like a strong insult, but it's definitely a derogatory bias hence it's anti-trans (I don't think that many people actually have a "fear" (phobia) of transpeople).
jurassicparklionkingfan said:
which is nonsense because that's just rape.
The trans panic defense is used to justify murder under the claim of deception. It doesn’t need to go as far as rape (the last two cases in the Wikipedia page definitely don’t), and most of those listed in the Wikipedia article don’t. Even the one that does involves unjustifiable use of force (and I’m also confused how three people didn’t notice their partner had a penis). But things like flirting with a transgender person you didn’t know is trans like in that last case isn’t rape. Not even close.
I'd forgotten that Urban Dictionary has been active since the "trap" meme first became popular. If you look at the dates on these entries, it seems like there's two big waves:
Previously, I mentioned that we would have some trans girls to clean out of the tag if we wanted to be consistent with pro-"trap" reasoning, and this is a major reason why. The shift to exclude trans people/characters from the word "trap" was something that happened while we were not using it. If we want to say the newer definition takes precedence and anybody trans is now off-topic, that's not necessarily a problem, but how do we start drawing the line?
feline_lump said:
I'd forgotten that Urban Dictionary has been active since the "trap" meme first became popular. If you look at the dates on these entries, it seems like there's two big waves:
- Entries from 2005 to the early 2010s disparagingly refer to "men who look like women", "crossdressers", "transvestites", "transexuals", "a woman with a penis", etc. without taking the time to differentiate any of those categories. They are almost entirely focused on real people and porn stars. I think only one in the first 25 pages mentioned anime.
- From 2017 onwards, there's a suddenly a large volume of entries focused on anime. They start to take a position on trans people - either this term is offensive to trans people and shouldn't be used, or it's not applicable to trans people. Activity drops again around 2020.
Doesn't this directly contradict the common adage being pushed so far that trap was originally used to refer to fictional characters only, that using it towards real people is considered both a misuse of the term and something pushed by outsiders to the culture, and that said use in that fashion is greatly exaggerated and shouldn't be considered regardless? That makes it seem more like that it's the other way around, that those in the culture are propagating a narrative so that they aren't forced to change a term they've gotten used to despite real world use outpacing them for at least two decades.
How do the votes on each of those look? If the votes on the post-2017 ones are greater than those before them, then what I just said wouldn't hold water.
damian's question intrigued me so i went to do some quick research. note that instead of looking at the votes as they are now, as it's likely that any anachronistic definitions will since have been downvoted or drowned out, the methodology i settled on was poking at certain points in the page's history on archive.org. the following is what i gathered:
the absolute earliest page capture that i can find that makes reference to "trap" as a term used towards a person is this definition from 2007 :
1. A male of whom appears or dresses in a feminine way in order to lead people to believe he is female.
(Usually, traps fool unsuspecting teens into fucking them. However when the pants come off, the unsuspecting teens freak out)
a couple of months later, this definition gains popularity for some time:
a man who likes to dress up in women's clothing and make-up. He even thinks he's a woman at times, also acts like one and has an odd phobia of not wanting to showing his naked body. Out of shame? We can only guess, but he definetely has something 'extra' to hide you know where.
Sal, the pre-op slur redacted, though i'm sure you can guess which one decided he would start taking hormones to become a woman. Unfortuntely, it didn't work as well as he planned so he just decided to act like one.
from about 2010 to about 2017, the following definition was leading the charts on urbandictionary:
A man who dresses like a woman and is somewhat feminine in appearance. Could almost be mistaken for a woman until you are in the bedroom with one. Watch out for these types, they are usually afraid to get intimate because you might discover their little 'secret', but sooner or later you find out the truth!
sometime in 2017, this definition briefly took over:
A pre-op transwoman who is both passable and hot. The kind that, when you find she's packing heat, you just don't care.
How was I supposed to know she was a trap? Well, of course I banged her. She was hot.
following that, a shift seems to have started in around 2019 as the popular definitions shifted towards the anime angle. see how the second most popular definition on the page capture states this:
Not to be confused with transgenderism, which is a person transitioning to the opposite gender.
Person A: That's a cute girl! What anime is she from?
Person B: It's actually a dude. He's a trap. He's from anime title.
the leading definition from sometime in 2022 takes an even more decisive stance:
Transgendered individuals are definitionally not a trap. Calling them such can be taken to be offensive, due to it being a form of erasure.
afterwards, most of the definitions on the front page either state that it's an anime term, or take note to outright deny the term's relation to transgender individuals. i find this to be a puzzling change of course as for many years the term seems to have been demonstrably used to refer to them. it's a separate question whether the historical or current definition should be given more attention, though (if urban dictionary is to be considered a reliable source, which as far as slang goes i personally believe it is) it's undeniable that the term was in fact used to refer to trans people, at least for a time.