Posted under Tags
BUR #59159 is pending approval.
mass update kantai_collection sisters -> -sisters -siblings
In previous discussions (topic #10819, topic #23733, and topic #24859), the consensus was that shipgirls shouldn't count for the sisters tag to avoid polluting it, but now a couple users are spamming the tag on Kancolle images so we have to have this discussion again.
Should we count sister ships as sisters for purposes of tagging?
If we're fine with artoria_pendragon_(fate) parent_and_child or umamusume sisters then this is fine as well.
Fenton said in forum #438493:
You have to remove the incest tag as well if you're going for that.
Incest is on a grand total of 20 Kancolle posts, that can be gardened manually.
The major question I'm asking is if people's opinions have changed since the last time this question was decided. Other than the two users I've pinged, the vast majority of tag changes in the search "Kantai_collection sisters" have been removing the tags.
I started gardening them this morning because it seemed like it was getting spammed by those two users (and really, mostly the one), but if there's been an actual change in how people believe then I'd like to know.
I suppose just dumping them all into sisters is one way to get rid of pool #10686.
Edit: Made BUR #59160 as the alternative to this BUR, where just dump the pool into the sisters tag.
Updated by Historyanon
Historyanon said in forum #438495:
The major question I'm asking is if people's opinions have changed since the last time this question was decided. Other than the two users I've pinged, the vast majority of tag changes in the search "Kantai_collection sisters" have been removing the tags.
You keep talking about consensus. There is no consensus in any of the topics you mentioned. In fact, plenty of people have been confused about this over the years. Someone ranting about these characters not really being sisters because "erm, achtually they are battleships" certainly doesn't create a consensus.
The Kancolle wiki has stated that shipgirls should not be tagged as sisters for a full decade now. While it's true that this was never a true consensus, it has worked until now.
There's little use in tagging sister ships as sisters, as Kancolle has never been consistent about depicting them as actual sisters, it veries from class to class. Some of these posts are also tagging crossovers with Azur Lane as sisters, which is even worse.
nonamethanks said in forum #438494:
If we're fine with artoria_pendragon_(fate) parent_and_child or umamusume sisters then this is fine as well.
Not really comparable, because Artoria is in fact Mordred's biological parent, and some Umas are indeed biological sisters.
Last time I tried to make sense of this because of all the edits popping up someone went full reddit mod on me :/ glad to see we're actually doing something proper about it.
My impression from all the threads I saw was that it should be used but not for literally every image of characters just because they're from the same class. NNT's position on this as an admin has seemingly been fairly consistent. My experience with the series and the community is that members of a class are very often portrayed as actual sisters, so I guess it makes sense.
FubukiKai said in forum #438519:
My impression from all the threads I saw was that it should be used but not for literally every image of characters just because they're from the same class.
The idea I got from the opposition to this was that it was going to pollute the sisters tag, but this seems to come from a misconception that sisters is for depictions of sisterly interaction. People already slap sisters on any picture where two sisters are present even if they're across the room, trying to add some arbitrary distinction just for kancolle is not going to achieve anything.
Given how AL seems to be doing fine with using the “sisters” tag when dealing with sister ships, and given that the term is also in common use when referring to real-life ships, I do think that the same should apply here. One possible alternative could be the creation of a new dedicated tag, let’s say “sister_ships,” to be used for ships that share the same class, though that would probably end up being a somewhat awkward case in which the tag is 99.9% ship personifications, with one or two drawings of regular ships popping up every now and then.
Updated by evvvk
FubukiKai said in forum #438519:
Last time I tried to make sense of this because of all the edits popping up someone went full reddit mod on me :/ glad to see we're actually doing something proper about it.
Are you talking about forum #431065, when you bumped an ancient thread to misrepresent a conversation in another thread?
I'm not saying you tried to mislead anyone, but if you claim a consensus about tagging was reached when it wasn't, then that claim needs to be corrected to avoid potential mistags.
It's also reasonable for that thread to be locked because, again, you were bumping an ancient thread.
evvvk said in forum #438534:
Given how AL seems to be doing fine with using the “sisters” tag when dealing with sister ships, and given that the term is also in common use when referring to real-life ships, I do think that the same should apply here. One possible alternative could be the creation of a new dedicated tag, let’s say “sister_ships,” to be used for ships that share the same class, though that would probably end up being a somewhat awkward case in which the tag is 99.9% ship personifications, with one or two drawings of regular ships popping up every now and then.
Would that mean removing the "incest" tag from all AL fanarts? One of the main problems I have is that for tagging, AL sister ships are treated like literal sisters while KC sister ships are not.
evvvk said in forum #438534:
Given how AL seems to be doing fine with using the “sisters” tag when dealing with sister ships, and given that the term is also in common use when referring to real-life ships, I do think that the same should apply here. One possible alternative could be the creation of a new dedicated tag, let’s say “sister_ships,” to be used for ships that share the same class, though that would probably end up being a somewhat awkward case in which the tag is 99.9% ship personifications, with one or two drawings of regular ships popping up every now and then.
This problem crops up for all personifications, not just ships. Part of the argument to tag shipgirls as sisters is because of things like post #9433975 and post #3710989 are tagged sisters.
Eboreg said in forum #438550:
Would that mean removing the "incest" tag from all AL fanarts? One of the main problems I have is that for tagging, AL sister ships are treated like literal sisters while KC sister ships are not.
I would assume that would be determined by future discussion/voting if the "sister_ships" tag ended up happening. But I am not that familiar with AL. Personally, though, I would be fine with something like:
AL Amagi and AL Akagi fuck - "sister_ships" + "incest" for tagging purposes
AL Akagi and AL Kaga fuck - "adoptive_sisters" + "inseki" for tagging purposes
BaiserLaVerite said in forum #438502:
The Kancolle wiki has stated that shipgirls should not be tagged as sisters for a full decade now. While it's true that this was never a true consensus, it has worked until now.
That's my impression too, which is the reason why it caught me off guard to see sisters added to hundreds of Kancolle posts in the last two weeks. If that's the direction the fandom has felt for so long, I thought, why is it suddenly the opposite now?
FubukiKai said in forum #438519:
My impression from all the threads I saw was that it should be used but not for literally every image of characters just because they're from the same class.
Unfortunately, this is literally what was happening. One user was adding the sisters tag to every image of Shoukaku and Zuikaku together, or Fusou and Yamashiro together, or Atago and Takao together. The other user seemed to be going through the whole of pool #10686 to add the tag to each post.
That absolutely feels like tag pollution to me, and reading through the previous threads, this very action was the major argument as to why personifications should not be classified as siblings.
Ultimately, there really should be a unified policy on whether personifications of non-biological things should be able to have those kinds of relationships, not this current "it depends on the IP" approach. I do lean toward the "sister_ships" tag probably being the optimal solution for ship personifications, even if it would take a whole lot of time to tag everything with it.
evvvk said in forum #438634:
I do lean toward the "sister_ships" tag
That's just reinventing the sisters tag from first principles. The only thing we're doing is moving posts arbitrarily to a new tag that will be used in exactly the same way as sisters, except based on the copyright.
Yes. It is very much a compromise opinion that could be used if it is decided that "sisters" is only meant to be used for non-personifications. My personal preferences when it comes to tagging shipgirl sisters at the moment are "sister_ships" ≥ "sisters" > the current status quo.
FubukiKai said in forum #438519:
Last time I tried to make sense of this because of all the edits popping up someone went full reddit mod on me :/
@Blank_User already covered everything you did wrong, but if I had actually went full Reddit mod, you would've received an arbitrary permaban instead of a light scolding. Don't nail yourself to that cross.
Historyanon said in forum #438631:
Unfortunately, this is literally what was happening. One user was adding the sisters tag to every image of Shoukaku and Zuikaku together, or Fusou and Yamashiro together, or Atago and Takao together. The other user seemed to be going through the whole of pool #10686 to add the tag to each post.
That absolutely feels like tag pollution to me, and reading through the previous threads, this very action was the major argument as to why personifications should not be classified as siblings.
It would be one thing if the "sisters" had similar physical features with each other, but that's often not the case. Even back during Kancolle's peak, I never really thought of Atago and Takao as sisters simply by their very different appearances. Things get even murkier once you add the other two "sisters", Maya and Choukai, who don't even have matching uniforms with their older "sisters".
The whole "sister" situation just strikes me as WW2 naval otaku (i.e. Kancolle's target audience) trying to ram their metaknowledge headcanon in.
