BUR #57652 has been rejected.
deprecate implied_hetero
This wikiless tag is just an unsorted mess of couple, after sex, caught/walk-in implied sex and so on
Posted under Tags
BUR #57652 has been rejected.
deprecate implied_hetero
This wikiless tag is just an unsorted mess of couple, after sex, caught/walk-in implied sex and so on
zetsubousensei said in forum #432838:
Do you think the tag is conceptually unsalvagable? We have implied yaoi/yuri do you think they are similarly bad tags?
What would be the use case for this tag? Also tags are almost as bad, (specially implied yaoi) but you could at least argue they portray a specific thing, but as it stands implied hetero is just stuff that should be just be tagged tagged couple (implied_hetero user:FlorAzul), implied sex/implied after sex (post #11124192, post #11019935, post #11001124, post #10999499,post #10772336, post #10672382, post #10564673, post #10227565)
Updated by Mexiguy
Based on the wiki for implied yuri a character showing affection for an object resembling another girl falls under that tag so post #9004807 and post #11028122 would be implied hetero under those same standards. Ditto for the fantasizing about a character who isn't present so post #9399447.
If you think these should just be in hetero I don't have a problem with that but all three should be handled at the same time.
The strengths and weaknesses of implied hetero are identical to those of implied yuri and implied yaoi. The only difference is that implied hetero is extremely undertagged and has never been properly gardened/maintained, since there are no hetero autists, whereas implied_yuri and implied_yaoi are much better maintained thanks to their respective autists.
It makes no sense to deprecate just one of them, the three tags should live or die together. In its current state this tag is certainly useless. It's tiny and there are more mistags than correct tags. But I don't see why we should prevent the possibility of someone coming along in the future and turning it into something usable, like the other two tags.
That said, people have been complaining about these implied tags for a very long time. The general consensus seems to be that they're very unintuitive and they're definitely all prone to mistagging. The question is what to do with them. Nuke? Rename? Redefine? Personally my preferred solution would be to rename them to something that more intuitively tracks their actual meaning on this site, though don't ask me what that new name should be...
What about posts like post #10513027 and post #10050158? I mean, borrowed clothes exists but it doesn't exactly cover the nuance of "borrowing an implied partner's clothes specifically".
Or stuff like post #9990387 or post #11028122 where a character is fawning over a character doll of a love interest?
I don't see any benefit to treating this tag differently than implied yuri and implied yaoi. The posts I linked above are the kind of thing that would fall into those more defined tags if that was the way the genders went instead.
I do definitely agree there is a mistagging problem and I don't really think the after sex posts are suited to this tag.
CoreMack said in forum #432878:
The strengths and weaknesses of implied hetero are identical to those of implied yuri and implied yaoi. The only difference is that implied hetero is extremely undertagged and has never been properly gardened/maintained, since there are no hetero autists, whereas implied_yuri and implied_yaoi are much better maintained thanks to their respective autists.
It makes no sense to deprecate just one of them, the three tags should live or die together. In its current state this tag is certainly useless. It's tiny and there are more mistags than correct tags. But I don't see why we should prevent the possibility of someone coming along in the future and turning it into something usable, like the other two tags.
That said, people have been complaining about these implied tags for a very long time. The general consensus seems to be that they're very unintuitive and they're definitely all prone to mistagging. The question is what to do with them. Nuke? Rename? Redefine? Personally my preferred solution would be to rename them to something that more intuitively tracks their actual meaning on this site, though don't ask me what that new name should be...
I agree with this post completely.
The bulk update request #57652 (forum #432821) has been rejected by @nonamethanks.
CoreMack said in forum #432878:
That said, people have been complaining about these implied tags for a very long time. The general consensus seems to be that they're very unintuitive and they're definitely all prone to mistagging. The question is what to do with them. Nuke? Rename? Redefine? Personally my preferred solution would be to rename them to something that more intuitively tracks their actual meaning on this site, though don't ask me what that new name should be...
The problem with these tags is that all it takes is one autist to think "you can't tell whether the person receiving this anal mating press with slapping balls and overflowing cum is a girl or a trap, so it's clearly implied hetero", and the tag becomes unusable, as we've seen happen time and time again with other tags like implied futanari or whatever the hell was forum #137968.
Personally, I think these tags are too broad, and their main purpose goes against the very name we're using.
We're basically trying to stuff a myriad of different concepts into these tags and they fail at being good at any of them. We need more specific tags, not overly broad ones that fail at actually letting us search what we want to search. Some of the things we stuff under these tags could very well imply the main yuri/yaoi/hetero tags, but because the implied tags try to grab everything that is not fucking/kissing, we end up in this incomplete state where we have "skins touching", and "everything else".
Lemme give you a few examples of the amount of things we dump into implied * when they should be into the main tag, or dump into the main tag when they should be into implied *, or should have their own tag:
I could go on, but basically almost every post i open under these implied_ tags shows a different concept that's different from the rest. These tags are a bad relic of the past and we need to figure out a better way to tag all these different concepts.
Some, if not all, of these concepts, should probably also imply their main tags. I can't imagine that someone searching for yaoi (or blacklisting it) wouldn't want to catch pictures of a guy jerking off to another man, or of a guy thinking with love in his eyes about another guy even if it's not in the picture.
Updated by nonamethanks
As a certified implied_* tag hater, I'm well-aware of it's misuse (anytime it gets brought up I usually go and fix a few implied sex and implied yuri posts). I can't speak for hetero and yaoi (though I know the former is undertagged, including by myself), but yuri has always been a bit more about subtext and not purely based on actions shown in the image. But this is good, since it makes it useful for searching for those who are interested in it, and I assume it also works the other way for those who want to blacklist it.
I'm definitely for expaning the tag into usecases where we are currently "forced" to use implied yuri:
It would basically be allowing indirect and implied depictions, because it would still fall under the concept of yuri as you would want to see it when searching for it. This would be dependent on the creation of subtext for better searching though. I think (1) and (2) would be fine as a general one-sided_love and unrequired_love tags, since just adding yuri/hetero/yaoi would work to narrow it down. Having (3) and (4) be similarly general might be a bit too vague though, so having one per yuri/hetero/yaoi seems fine. This is mostly just based on vibes though, if this ends up being too many or too few tags that's fine by me too.
Now is the part where I list a bunch of similar situations currently lumped under implied_yuri, with my proposal on what to do with them:
I could probably go on but I'll leave this here for now. TL;DR yes please, though we should take care to make other tags when expanding the definition of yuri, and not get hung up over names because they can always be renamed.
One more point I meant to add. Currently Akiyama Mizuki is tagged 1other and thus can't get tags such as yuri. Despite this a lot of their art is, well, yuri art for all intents and purposes, including target audience mostly, see something like post #11272838. Something to deal with this would be useful too, though I'm not sure where to even start there.
ANON_TOKYO said in forum #436483:
One more point I meant to add. Currently Akiyama Mizuki is tagged 1other and thus can't get tags such as yuri. Despite this a lot of their art is, well, yuri art for all intents and purposes, including target audience mostly, see something like post #11272838. Something to deal with this would be useful too, though I'm not sure where to even start there.
1other is for when you genuinely can't tell. She's wearing a female wedding dress there, so it's pretty clear that the artist is drawing a woman, and it's fine to tag yuri.
I'm pretty busy right now IRL and won't have time to sit down and think about the best way to modify these tags, but I'll do up a more thorough proposal in the next few days. For now though:
nonamethanks said in forum #436485:
1other is for when you genuinely can't tell. She's wearing a female wedding dress there, so it's pretty clear that the artist is drawing a woman, and it's fine to tag yuri.
Akiyama Mizuki is tagged as 1other because their official canonical gender is "?". However, it's pretty much universally agreed upon by fans that they're biologically male and identify as female. For danbooru tagging purposes, they're not androgynous, they're a trap that's tagged as 1other solely because official sources refuse to explicitly confirm their gender. I'd be very strongly against them being tagged as yuri just because they're wearing a wedding dress. And in any event that's far outside the scope of this thread.
Updated by CoreMack
CoreMack said in forum #436490:
I'm pretty busy right now IRL and won't have time to sit down and think about the best way to modify these tags, but I'll do up a more thorough proposal in the next few days. For now though:
However, it's pretty much universally agreed upon by fans that they're biologically male and identify as female. For danbooru tagging purposes, they're not androgynous, they're a trap that's tagged as 1other because solely official sources refuse to explicitly confirm their gender. I'd be very strongly against them being tagged as yuri just because they're wearing a wedding dress. And in any event that's far outside the scope of this thread.
Ok yeah, that changes things then. I retract my statement on that character, especially after looking at more posts under akiyama_mizuki where people seem to commonly draw stuff like post #11275651. That'd be like tagging Astolfo (Fate) as 1girl I suppose.
nonamethanks said in forum #436491:
Ok yeah, that changes things then. I retract my statement on that character, especially after looking at more posts under akiyama_mizuki where people seem to commonly draw stuff like post #11275651. That'd be like tagging Astolfo (Fate) as 1girl I suppose.
Mizuki isn't really comparable to Astolfo, but I agree overall that this is absurdly unrelated to the thread and also isn't the kind of thing that'd be easily settled.
I don't play the game anymore but I've watched the relevant stories in both EN and JP and she's a really weird case in that her entire story revolves around being a trans woman (her big character song even translates to like "Transformation Flower"), but the game labeled her gender as "?" at the start (likely to avoid spoilers) and they deliberately like to go out of their way to ever say anything outright despite how overt it is. It's not like Astolfo being "?" in a playful way. It's also one of those things where all but a very specific part of the fanbase is in general agreement on the matter (in this case it's usually the Russian fanbase who like to be weirdly inflammatory about this topic).
I can't really see Mizuki ever leaving 1other barring the occasional OTM porn post, tbh, because of how strange the source material is about never saying anything outright.
Back on topic, I do have to agree that these tags try to combine a lot of different topics and also tend to have issues with their usage.
I removed a lot of posts from implied yaoi lately that were literally just... SFW yaoi. Like I'm talking things like embraces and cuddling all the way up to dudes kissing. It was really, really weird. And checking on it now it seems that even more have shown up, alongside stuff like "dude with cum in his ass" and "dude fantasizing about another guy". It's bizarre.
Updated by Confetto