Deprecate implied hetero

BUR #57652 has been rejected.

deprecate implied_hetero

This wikiless tag is just an unsorted mess of couple, after sex, caught/walk-in implied sex and so on

Do you think the tag is conceptually unsalvagable? We have implied yaoi/yuri do you think they are similarly bad tags?

zetsubousensei said in forum #432838:

Do you think the tag is conceptually unsalvagable? We have implied yaoi/yuri do you think they are similarly bad tags?

What would be the use case for this tag? Also tags are almost as bad, (specially implied yaoi) but you could at least argue they portray a specific thing, but as it stands implied hetero is just stuff that should be just be tagged tagged couple (implied_hetero user:FlorAzul), implied sex/implied after sex (post #11124192, post #11019935, post #11001124, post #10999499,post #10772336, post #10672382, post #10564673, post #10227565)

Based on the wiki for implied yuri a character showing affection for an object resembling another girl falls under that tag so post #9004807 and post #11028122 would be implied hetero under those same standards. Ditto for the fantasizing about a character who isn't present so post #9399447.

If you think these should just be in hetero I don't have a problem with that but all three should be handled at the same time.

The strengths and weaknesses of implied hetero are identical to those of implied yuri and implied yaoi. The only difference is that implied hetero is extremely undertagged and has never been properly gardened/maintained, since there are no hetero autists, whereas implied_yuri and implied_yaoi are much better maintained thanks to their respective autists.

It makes no sense to deprecate just one of them, the three tags should live or die together. In its current state this tag is certainly useless. It's tiny and there are more mistags than correct tags. But I don't see why we should prevent the possibility of someone coming along in the future and turning it into something usable, like the other two tags.

That said, people have been complaining about these implied tags for a very long time. The general consensus seems to be that they're very unintuitive and they're definitely all prone to mistagging. The question is what to do with them. Nuke? Rename? Redefine? Personally my preferred solution would be to rename them to something that more intuitively tracks their actual meaning on this site, though don't ask me what that new name should be...

What about posts like post #10513027 and post #10050158? I mean, borrowed clothes exists but it doesn't exactly cover the nuance of "borrowing an implied partner's clothes specifically".

Or stuff like post #9990387 or post #11028122 where a character is fawning over a character doll of a love interest?

I don't see any benefit to treating this tag differently than implied yuri and implied yaoi. The posts I linked above are the kind of thing that would fall into those more defined tags if that was the way the genders went instead.

I do definitely agree there is a mistagging problem and I don't really think the after sex posts are suited to this tag.

CoreMack said in forum #432878:

The strengths and weaknesses of implied hetero are identical to those of implied yuri and implied yaoi. The only difference is that implied hetero is extremely undertagged and has never been properly gardened/maintained, since there are no hetero autists, whereas implied_yuri and implied_yaoi are much better maintained thanks to their respective autists.

It makes no sense to deprecate just one of them, the three tags should live or die together. In its current state this tag is certainly useless. It's tiny and there are more mistags than correct tags. But I don't see why we should prevent the possibility of someone coming along in the future and turning it into something usable, like the other two tags.

That said, people have been complaining about these implied tags for a very long time. The general consensus seems to be that they're very unintuitive and they're definitely all prone to mistagging. The question is what to do with them. Nuke? Rename? Redefine? Personally my preferred solution would be to rename them to something that more intuitively tracks their actual meaning on this site, though don't ask me what that new name should be...

I agree with this post completely.

Tag looks significantly better mistagging-wise now than it did a couple hours ago, thanks to hasu no hassennen.

The bulk update request #57652 (forum #432821) has been rejected by @nonamethanks.

CoreMack said in forum #432878:

That said, people have been complaining about these implied tags for a very long time. The general consensus seems to be that they're very unintuitive and they're definitely all prone to mistagging. The question is what to do with them. Nuke? Rename? Redefine? Personally my preferred solution would be to rename them to something that more intuitively tracks their actual meaning on this site, though don't ask me what that new name should be...

The problem with these tags is that all it takes is one autist to think "you can't tell whether the person receiving this anal mating press with slapping balls and overflowing cum is a girl or a trap, so it's clearly implied hetero", and the tag becomes unusable, as we've seen happen time and time again with other tags like implied futanari or whatever the hell was forum #137968.

Personally, I think these tags are too broad, and their main purpose goes against the very name we're using.
We're basically trying to stuff a myriad of different concepts into these tags and they fail at being good at any of them. We need more specific tags, not overly broad ones that fail at actually letting us search what we want to search. Some of the things we stuff under these tags could very well imply the main yuri/yaoi/hetero tags, but because the implied tags try to grab everything that is not fucking/kissing, we end up in this incomplete state where we have "skins touching", and "everything else".

Lemme give you a few examples of the amount of things we dump into implied * when they should be into the main tag, or dump into the main tag when they should be into implied *, or should have their own tag:

• post #11183338: a girl masturbating while thinking about a male character. There's nothing "implied" there. This should be called one-sided love/one-sided yuri/one-sided hetero or something like that
• post #7009537: a character not being sure about their attraction, or rejecting it outright. How is this more yuri than a woman clearly fantasizing or even masturbating while thinking about another woman that's not in the picture, or is a doll/photo? This should get something like unrequited yuri/one-sided yuri/uncertain yuri/uncertain attraction + yuri, whatever we want to call it
• post #11270470: no-contact but bi-directional yuri, which I'd instead call indirect yuri or no-contact yuri, basically a tag for obvious mutual attraction but depicted in different scenes or with the characters in separate locations. Things like mutual masturbation across computers could also fall under this tag, but i'd definitely still tag it yuri.
• post #11170850: a character showing attraction towards an undefined or ambiguous character: this is what comes to my mind when i hear "implied yuri", because it's implied that it's yuri but you have no confirmation due to the character not being obviously a woman.
• post #11231174: "light"/unconfirmed yuri, yuribait. Also what I think about when i hear "implied yuri", but still different enough from the previous example that they deserve their own tag. Maybe this post is too much towards true yuri, but you get what I mean, posts that make you think "are they really just friends?"
• post #6821720 or post #11104136: yuri by proxy/hetero by proxy. We should have a tag for fetishization/objectification as in "love towards an object representing a real character".

I could go on, but basically almost every post i open under these implied_ tags shows a different concept that's different from the rest. These tags are a bad relic of the past and we need to figure out a better way to tag all these different concepts.

Some, if not all, of these concepts, should probably also imply their main tags. I can't imagine that someone searching for yaoi (or blacklisting it) wouldn't want to catch pictures of a guy jerking off to another man, or of a guy thinking with love in his eyes about another guy even if it's not in the picture.

As a certified implied_* tag hater, I'm well-aware of it's misuse (anytime it gets brought up I usually go and fix a few implied sex and implied yuri posts). I can't speak for hetero and yaoi (though I know the former is undertagged, including by myself), but yuri has always been a bit more about subtext and not purely based on actions shown in the image. But this is good, since it makes it useful for searching for those who are interested in it, and I assume it also works the other way for those who want to blacklist it.

I'm definitely for expaning the tag into usecases where we are currently "forced" to use implied yuri:

• (1) post #10042742 should just be yuri since the other party is directly depicted. I'm less certain whether this should also go for mentions by name, see post #9045265 for example (this is acually also a bit of a can of worms with theoretical <character>_(topic) tags). One other problem might be the name, currently I can see how it would imply that this is for rejections.
• (2) post #7009537 should just be yuri, usage for one-sided affection is well established though sometimes forgotten.
• (3) post #11270470 should also just be yuri, it's pretty clear what's going on and what the artist is going for.
• post #11170850 not having yuri would be a missing tag even under current standards IMO.
• post #11231174 is just yuri, I don't know what the person who added implied_yuri was thinking. As for a separate tag for this, I think this is too much towards "normal" for us to be able to really separate it.
• (4) post #10932117 and other such "proxied" interactions are fine by me too.

It would basically be allowing indirect and implied depictions, because it would still fall under the concept of yuri as you would want to see it when searching for it. This would be dependent on the creation of subtext for better searching though. I think (1) and (2) would be fine as a general one-sided_love and unrequired_love tags, since just adding yuri/hetero/yaoi would work to narrow it down. Having (3) and (4) be similarly general might be a bit too vague though, so having one per yuri/hetero/yaoi seems fine. This is mostly just based on vibes though, if this ends up being too many or too few tags that's fine by me too.

Now is the part where I list a bunch of similar situations currently lumped under implied_yuri, with my proposal on what to do with them:

• post #10162406 - The text mentions a change in shampoo, and the bottom panel shows they sometimes "smell the same". I think this would still be implied_yuri since the connection is a bit too tenuous.
• post #11180392 - The text + hickeys make this a morning after situation, there's nothing implied about it. This one is more difficult since there's a direct depiction of the "result". If this is included in yuri, it would need a tag, but I don't know a good descriptive name for it.
• post #11118341 - Similarly, we have a hickey shown here. This one has additional layers because the "dog" that is blamed for it is actually an animalization, something which will be obvious to the fandom but is also explicitly explained in post #11118348. If the former counts, so should this one, along with some "we're telling but not showing who did it".
• post #10979698 - "room you can't leave unless you have sex" is also pretty unambiguous. The first thought is "they just had sex didn't they" so maybe something along those lines for a tag name.
• post #10968799 - A marriage proposal but we're only shown one person in this post. I think this plus various similar ones such as confessions should just be grouped together with a tag too.
• post #10783993 & post #10400857 Basically marking their partner. Might also be included with the previous one since it's just be tagged yuri if we were shown the other party in this same picture.
• post #11101878 - Again, it's not ambiguous that she shouldn't flirt because she's already in a relation ship. I don't know how to categorize it, but there's nothing implied about it.
• post #10864545 - Should also count, do we have a tag for sending nudes or something?
• post #9941782 - Should animalizations count for the proposed yuri by proxy?
• post #8921447 - "I wrote this novel about how much I love you and need you in my life forever, that implies I'm in love with you" yeah right, again it should just be yuri. It's like the (1) example but much more extreme, so much more that I don't think it might but that it should.

I could probably go on but I'll leave this here for now. TL;DR yes please, though we should take care to make other tags when expanding the definition of yuri, and not get hung up over names because they can always be renamed.