change category of cover to meta

Posted under Tags

BUR #57156 is pending approval.

category cover -> meta
category album_cover -> meta
category back_cover -> meta
category blu-ray_cover -> meta
category cover_page -> meta
category dvd_cover -> meta
category fake_cover -> meta
category magazine_cover -> meta
category video_game_cover -> meta
category textless_cover_page -> meta
category comic_cover -> meta
category doujin_cover -> meta
category manga_cover -> meta
category novel_cover -> meta
category fake_magazine_cover -> meta

this was suggested by @snowpiercer in topic #35508 so i decided to request it again with all implications. i'm not sure if changing the category of a tag breaks existing implications, btw so maybe we'll need to reimplicate everything later.

imo since youtube video thumbnail is a meta tag, i don't see why these shouldn't be as well. none of these tags are tagging things on the actual image and are basically like official art. if a textless cover page hadn't published as the cover of something, it wouldn't be tagged textless cover page since you can't actually see it's a textless cover page.

the only exception are "fake" covers, like fake magazine cover implying magazine cover. imo they should be meta tags as well since it's just easier to categorize them within the danbooru tagging system. if they weren't we could end up with a situation like "we have a tag for things that LOOK like covers and a separate tag for things that ARE covers and obviously every cover that IS a cover LOOKS like a cover so you are supposed to tag both magazine cover (meta) AND magazine cover (appearance) on every post that IS a magazine cover" which to me doesn't sound very useful. so it would be better to move all of them to meta for the sake of tagging.

an alternative would be to keep REAL magazine cover (meta) separate from fake magazine cover (general). but then we would need to remove the implication and remove all magazine cover tags from fake magazine cover posts.

a fake cover bur topic #16304
also box art / fake box art topic #19918 which probably could be changed to meta as well

I actually think that cover and all other "proper" tags should be meta, but fake cover etc. should remain general, as this actually goes back to describing the image contents. Any implications that are problematic because of this should be reconsidered.

ANON_TOKYO said in forum #426854:

I actually think that cover and all other "proper" tags should be meta, but fake cover etc. should remain general, as this actually goes back to describing the image contents. Any implications that are problematic because of this should be reconsidered.

i would make a bur for that but i sincerely don't think it's worth it...

basically fake cover is supposed to be used WITH other cover tags. so we have a lot of fake_cover album_cover and some fake_cover manga_cover etc. in order to make the BUR we can't just "update fake_cover -> -cover" because "manga_cover" implies "cover" so we would have to basically create a dozen tags for the fake version of the real tag and do something like

update fake_cover manga_cover -> -manga_cover fake_manga_cover
imply fake_manga_cover -> fake_cover

for every one of them, fake album cover, fake video game cover, etc. before we remove cover from fake cover

Most of these you can visually tell they're meant to be covers by the format and general style, so it's not meta knowledge to say they're covers. Youtube video thumbnail is an example of something that's purely meta - it's impossible to tell something is a Youtube thumbnail just by looking at it.

A related issue is that we have both fake cover / fake magazine cover and album cover redraw / video game cover redraw / comic cover redraw / book cover redraw when these are essentially for the same thing: parodies of real covers. Fake cover is the better tag because it includes mock-ups that aren't parodies of any specific thing, and because most of these parodies aren't exact 1-to-1 redraws anyway.

Why is magazine cover the only one of these that has its own fake version?

Personally I support shifting at least some of these tags toward meta, just because it makes sense to have them next to official art and tags like novel illustration. If I see something like post #11120914, it's currently tagged with Original, official art, and textless version. If I wanted to see if it's a manga or novel or something else entirely, I would have to look through all those general tags to find it (and it turns out it doesn't have such a tag anyway).

I'm pretty sure I've tagged (or mistagged) some novel covers as novel illustrations before when adding copyright tags to obscure novels.

evazion makes the same mistake mayhem-chan did two years ago in forum #272361: mixing up form and essence. this works fine for general tagging – i mean, this how tagging by visual elements should usually be done (ahem) – but, obviously, covers are defined by not how they look but the very fact they were used as covers, and comparing them by visual hints only just because youtube thumbnails don't have an established pattern (that uploaders must follow) doesn't sound fair. so, i don't like the logic presented in '[use cover for] cover art of any type, whether real or "mocked-up"', because it ignores the significance of a function in art.

i was about to agree with anon tokyo about fake cover remaining general just for convenience, but this tag technically belongs to meta category as well, as the fakeness is not defined until the provenance is known. again, fake cover looks like a cover but with the only difference that it hasn't been used as such and this fact cannot be proved within the image. hence, it is a meta-knowledge for that image. 'obviousness' of the visual attributes (which are really common and by which it's quite easy to guess the format, sure, i agree) is not something that refutes meta status of the tag, it only proves the format made its appearance recognizable.

from danbooru standpoint, characters might not be in meta category, but copyrights are, as they are classified by its attributes – characters or context in the whole, basically a hierarchy – and presented in an image via these characters or the context; and so artists (but via source this time). meta tags we currently have are more like uncategorized leftovers which subject scope are much broader than any other category has. that's because, strictly speaking, nearly all tags here are meta tags – no image (as a visual sign) has explicitly written data that we just transfer other than file properties (for an image as a file), that is ironically not metadata (exif is anyway removed, iirc); we tag ourselves, we are translating the visual language into the natural language based on data given by an artist and common sense. when it was decided to categorize these tags, i suppose meta category hadn't felt significant enough to divide it on a smaller parts as listed on tag group:metatags.

interestingly, help:metatags lists jpeg artifacts and scan artifacts as exceptions, when they, even being part of an image, has nothing to do with the contents, as both of them are emerged from retrieving / processing the original image in its pure (or ideal, if you want) form, in its native medium. and here i'd wanted to clarify whether on danbooru we describe the whole image or the contents we find the main point of an art interest in, i.e. the part of that image? i had fun time tagging phonecard (object) along with phonecard (medium) in post #5346362 because the phonecard was photographed to capture its contents, and it is the main point of interest there. but imagine another iteration: that photo has been printed and scanned, so that you'd want to tag it as a scan, and probably no more? or maybe scan, photo (medium) and phonecard (medium)? keep in mind that scan denotes the way of retrieving an image – as well as photo (medium) – and ideally requires an additional medium tag, but with a photo you'll have a world as a medium itself – unless you want to create a large number of unnecessary medium tags. the notion of medium can shift from 'image is what we scanned / what we photographed' to 'image is the scan / the photograph itself that just contains another image in it'. if anything, i hope we'll never get into such a mess and stay with more convenient way of tagging what community find useful, and keep focus on art rather than being meticulous about meta that much.

but being somewhat meticulous is necessary in this case. i think that proper description of meta tags should be slightly shorter than how help:metatags puts it in. 'meta tags are tags that convey information about an image' is great – just stop there unless you want to heavily rework this category. i'm trying to convince other users to stop thinking in the visuals to describe an image using meta tags, but it's likely the term 'meta' should be defined first. please do, if still in doubts, and maybe we'll be able to solve this issue (so that it does not appear later).

but then we would also need to reconsider the categorization of tags like parody, meme, *_(style), etc. they don't feel quite right in general category, they don't feel quite right in meta category, as they describe the context in a broad sense, but are still based upon image contents.

as a common hanken fan myself, i can say that provenance matters a lot, and having these tags buried under the pile of other general tags is not just simply wrong but also inconvenient to look them up (wavedash have a point). and, of course, any fake covers need to be unimplied from corresponding provenance tags, if we go this way. furthermore, i would be happy if we would at least have subcategories in meta category – without names, just with a blank line between them – to bring tidiness and easier reading. as i said above, i can see how we ended up with these categories / tags, but there's still a hope nonetheless. but this is definitely a topic that needs to be talked thoroughly.

p.s. by the way, you are missing some other cover tags (laserdisc cover, vhs cover, etc.)

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