imply superman -> clark_kent (brainstorming a policy for superheroes vs civilian identities)

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nonamethanks

BUR #57474 is pending approval.

mass update clark_kent -superman -> char:clark_kent_(civilian)
create implication clark_kent_(civilian) -> clark_kent
create implication superman -> clark_kent
mass update bruce_wayne -batman -> char:bruce_wayne_(civilian)
create implication bruce_wayne_(civilian) -> bruce_wayne
create implication batman -> bruce_wayne
mass update spider-man spider-man_(miles_morales) -> -spider-man_(miles_morales)
mass update peter_parker -spider-man -> char:peter_parker_(civilian)
create alias spider-man -> spider-man_(peter_parker)
create implication spider-man_(peter_parker) -> peter_parker
create implication peter_parker_(civilian) -> peter_parker

It's time to deal with this once and for all.

See topic #34656 and topic #35279 for some recent context.

Basically, our superhero tags are a mess: historically we've kept civilian and superhero identity separate, but there's many problems with the current approach:

My proposal is to just pull the tooth out, and switch to umbrella tags based on the person, to align these to the rest of our character tags.
I propose we have an umbrella tag for the person, and subtags for all the different superheroes they were known as, and an additional chartag for the civilian identity (when necessary, since some characters don't have separate civilian identities).

You'd think the cases I'm using like Batman are an exception, but there's actually been multiple batmen too: see post #10525116 for example. See Val-Zod for a random alternate Superman example.
Whether we should rename batman to batman (bruce wayne) and superman to superman (bruce wayne) is debatable, because people will always and naturally be searching for the most popular version first, and this would be a bit weird, but I think even the fact that batman would show up as a chartag in the sidebar under bruce wayne would at least give some tagger pause and let them think about what they're doing, if they are uploading a different character with the same name.

There are some edge cases like Dr. Manhattan like Jon Osterman, but just as I was thinking about how to deal with these I discovered someone had already created the civilian tag and added it to a normal-ass dr manhattan post where the civilian identity was not even present: a further proof of just how broken the current system is for normal users.

As usual, feel free to propose counterBURs to fix this problem.

Obviously, these BURs need work, but the tags are a mess already anyway, so consider voting on this as voting on the policy rather than the syntax of the BUR. Some major cleanup will be needed regardless of what we do.

Updated by nonamethanks

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nsmrtmr1 wispydreamer hasu no hassennen Ylimegirl CommentaryRequest mock TheGamingRodent user 1434626 People of the Book AngryZapdos Arianrhod MTJF Nacha Confetto Damian0358 tamuraakemi ggraphy user 781002 is gone Mars49 BrokenEagle98
nonamethanks

mock said in forum #432258:

What do we do in cases where it's ambiguous who's wearing the costume, like post #7208579?

What we always do: make reasonable assumptions. Either that, or we create batgirl (other), or we tag all of the ones that could be there (like we do with female/male gacha protagonists when only the hand is visible), or we just tag the most popular one. This thread exists to iron out these problems before we commit to a new policy.

One reasonable contention from your topic: do we do dick_grayson_(robin), or robin (dick grayson), if we end up with dick grayson as an umbrella tag? The reasonable assumption would be dick grayson (robin), but then we'd also need to rename Spider-Man (Miles Morales) to miles morales (spider-man), etc.

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Damian0358

nonamethanks said in forum #432327:

What would the tag list for post #10344638 vs post #6377061 look like under that scenario?

It's a case of deciding whether we want:

* batgirl
** batgirl_(cassandra_cain)
** batgirl_(stephanie_brown)
* cassandra_cain
* stephanie_brown

or

* batgirl
* cassandra_cain
** cassandra_cain_(batgirl)
* stephanie_brown
** stephanie_brown_(batgirl)

(assuming in the latter case that we keep the standalone Batgirl tag).

Due to how we render implications for copytags and chartags, there's no scenario where one tag implies two parent tags, even if that is the ideal solution in this circumstance. Though I don't know what you mean by "post #10344638 vs post #6377061", the tag lists for both would be the same since post #6377061 is clearly adapted workout clothes based on their Batgirl uniforms.

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ToxicOrochi

trapster77 said in forum #432333:

will Sailor Moon get implied too? i'm not really a fan of the series so idk if sailor moon is a "title" that gets passed around from one character to another or is always Tsukino Usagi

It's not a title, Sailor Moon is always her, same with the other scouts. It's not something like the Ancient One from Ronin Warriors which is a title held by three characters during the course of the show.

I'm on the fence here, isn't this already implied with a whole host of magical girl characters already? If so, then this would be consistent with that.

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tamuraakemi

capeshit runs into the issue where there are characters that share the same civilian name and may or may not also share the same superhero identity without being the same person

with the three examples here, though certainly they are hit by it, these are iconic enough characters to not need qualifier, but there are definitely some pitfalls if this gets extended to characters of lesser general knowledge. though the current method seems to be just tagging them as the same superhero with no qualifier from what I could find, so it's not in a good state to start with anyway

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Ylimegirl

Damian0358 said in forum #432332:

Due to how we render implications for copytags and chartags, there's no scenario where one tag implies two parent tags

We can, the admins usually choose not to. Project Voltage implies both Vocaloid and Pokemon, but I imagine the amount of instances where multiple parent tags are implied for copytags and chartags is in the single digits.

Metatags that do this (like has downscaled revision) are much less controversial AFAIK.

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Damian0358

Ylimegirl said in forum #432357:

We can, the admins usually choose not to. Project Voltage implies both Vocaloid and Pokemon, but I imagine the amount of instances where multiple parent tags are implied for copytags and chartags is in the single digits.

In Project Voltage's case, it's acceptable enough since typically that fanart just uses those two copytags at most, so it's an acceptable amount of repetition. Meanwhile, compare a three-way Batgirl multiparenttag situation:

* barbara_gordon
** batgirl_(barbara_gordon)
* batgirl
** batgirl_(cassandra_cain)
** batgirl_(barbara_gordon)
** batgirl_(stephanie_brown)
* cassandra_cain
** batgirl_(cassandra_cain)
* stephanie_brown
** batgirl_(stephanie_brown)

Ghastly.

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Damian0358

PersonalFowl said in forum #432360:

Something to keep in mind is how to handle situations like post #11072120 where it's ambiguous if that's Peter Parker or Miles Morales

Technically, nonamethanks already answered that.

nonamethanks said in forum #432259:

What we always do: make reasonable assumptions. Either that, or we create spider-man (other), or we tag all of the ones that could be there (like we do with female/male gacha protagonists when only the hand is visible), or we just tag the most popular one. This thread exists to iron out these problems before we commit to a new policy.

But I raised that point earlier in the preceding topic #34656, where I pushed against the wholesale branding of Spider-Man into Peter Parker (Spider-Man) when it's never been used for just Peter. Doing that change would require gardening that tag and making a decision on all the Spider-Men who wear similar suits to Peter, ala Spider-Man (Original Suit) and Spider-Man (Original Black Suit), especially since Peter himself has enough variance with his suits (and thankfully no one has been insane enough to propose something, like, making a tag for Maguire!Spider-Man's suit, which is distinct from Garfield!Spider-Man's suit and Holland!Spider-Man's suit in the same way it is distinct from Yamashiro Takuya's suit).

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