Tank tops are shirts 3

BUR #56538 is pending approval.

Previously requested in topic #23558 and topic #30232. Both BURs were upvoted at a 2:1 ratio. Both BURs were auto-rejected with zero admin input.

Tank tops are sleeveless shirts and should be tagged as such. Danbooru is the only place where this is even a remotely controversial opinion. Seeing as it still holds just as true today, I'm going to paste the most recent BUR's reasoning here.

Nothing has changed since topic #23558. Tank tops are still listed as a type of sleeveless shirt on Wikipedia, and the Google search results for sleeveless shirt are still full of tank tops.

Imagine if we had red_baseball_cap, or blue_down_jacket, or yellow_sneakers, while at the same time refusing to acknowledge them as hats, jackets, or shoes. That's what this is.

This would also help with tank tops that are tucked in, since we don't have a tank_top_tucked_in tag.

i don't think you're wrong about tank tops being shirts, but imo it feels like saying bridal gauntlets are gloves. i don't think people would find it useful if we basically nuked all colored bridal gauntlets tags just so we can imply it to gloves just like i don't think making black tank top into black_shirt tank_top is going to help anyone

btw i just noticed tank top doesn't even imply sleeveless

trapster77 said in forum #424585:

i don't think people would find it useful if we basically nuked all colored bridal gauntlets tags just so we can imply it to gloves just like i don't think making black tank top into black_shirt tank_top is going to help anyone

This argument does give me pause; it would make finding colored tank tops harder in images with more than one person.

Placeholder1996 said in forum #424603:

This argument does give me pause; it would make finding colored tank tops harder in images with more than one person.

The same could be said for almost any combination of two general tags. The "posts with multiple characters" argument is not actually a criticism of this BUR, but rather a criticism of how we tag the post as a whole instead of having a separate taglist for each character.

post #10028204 shows up in both the beanie black_hat and baseball_cap orange_hat searches. Does this mean we need black_beanie and orange_baseball_cap? No, because if you look at those searches, you find that most of the posts feature black beanies and orange baseball caps. The same will be true of the color_shirt tank_top searches once this BUR is approved.

I would strongly advocate for keeping the color tags separate.

The reason is: let's look at e.g. Reze's or Hatsune Miku's outfit. There's no better tag to describe it than "sleeveless shirt". However, if we let "white tank top" be aliased to "white shirt", you can no longer distinguish the case where Reze/Miku/someone else wears a tank top as an underwear/loungewear/sportwear -- both cases would be "white shirt". (If there is just one girl in the pic you might glean it from the presence of "tank top", but that quickly starts failing)

Even if we keep the color tags and just let "tank top" imply "sleeveless shirt", it would still constitute a loss of information/usefulness. Yes, technically there is a subset relation where tank tops are a type of sleeveless shirts, but that doesn't NEED to mean we should also strictly model our tags such, because "sleeveless shirt" can also serve as its own type of thing (e.g. the kind of sleeveless business/dress shirt Reze/Miku/a lof ot idols and VTubers wear) which does not have its own name. It's more useful to keep them separate.

In essence my stance is:

• letting "tank_top" imply "sleeveless": ok
• letting "tank_top" imply "sleeveless_shirt" without aliasing colors: mild disagree
• letting the color tags of "tank_top" be aliases to color tags of "shirt": extremely strong disagree

If we were to introduce a completely new tag like "sleeveless dress shirt", then I would say it would make sense to let "tank top" imply "sleeveless shirt", but NOT collapse the color tags, letting them still exist independently.

JamaisVu said in forum #424639:

The reason is: let's look at e.g. Reze's or Hatsune Miku's outfit. There's no better tag to describe it than "sleeveless shirt". However, if we let "white tank top" be aliased to "white shirt", you can no longer distinguish the case where Reze/Miku/someone else wears a tank top as an underwear/loungewear/sportwear -- both cases would be "white shirt". (If there is just one girl in the pic you might glean it from the presence of "tank top", but that quickly starts failing)

Even if we keep the color tags and just let "tank top" imply "sleeveless shirt", it would still constitute a loss of information/usefulness. Yes, technically there is a subset relation where tank tops are a type of sleeveless shirts, but that doesn't NEED to mean we should also strictly model our tags such, because "sleeveless shirt" can also serve as its own type of thing (e.g. the kind of sleeveless business/dress shirt Reze/Miku/a lof ot idols and VTubers wear) which does not have its own name. It's more useful to keep them separate.

If we were to introduce a completely new tag like "sleeveless dress shirt", then I would say it would make sense to let "tank top" imply "sleeveless shirt", but NOT collapse the color tags, letting them still exist independently.

If you think we don't have a tag for a certain style of shirt, and a new tag needs to be made, then that's a completely seperate issue that deserves its own discussion, and you are free to create a new topic proposing such a tag.

However, using this perceived gap in Danbooru's tagging system as a reason not to tag sleeveless shirts as sleeveless_shirt is ridiculous. Look at the Google search I linked for "sleeveless shirt" - there are quite a few tank tops in that search. Like I said, Danbooru is the only place where this is even a remotely controversial opinion; the ordinary person is going to search sleeveless_shirt and be expecting to find tank tops in that search. There is a reason that we already have thousands of posts in the sleeveless_shirt tank_top search, and that reason is that people see them as sleeveless shirts. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Some more disorganized thoughts for the thread.

The unarguable:

• there is a degree of shirtness in all worn tops, some of which we want under shirt and some of which we don't

• tank tops, in common parlace, are a kind of sleeveless shirt, of which we have many tagged types
• tank tops sit somewhere between spaghetti_strap camisoles and the kind of sleeveless shirt in post #6642898, post #6663441 in terms of width of the straps. It's not clear where they become "shirts" for us.
• they also sit somewhere between crop top and shirt on a vertical axis of length/size of the shirt

The arguable:

• IF (and it's a big if) we group tank tops under shirt, it should be an implication to sleeveless shirt, not an alias, and other tags should be created for the other variants of sleeveless shirts
• there are many users that tag tank top on things like post #5787930 or other crop tops
• If we say that tank tops are sleeveless shirts, then next we might be tempted to say that crop tops with straps are tank tops, or camisoles are shirts, and soon all of our top tags short of bikini will be under a shirt hierarchy that will include 90% of all posts
• this was already attempted before in forum #190819 with camisole, and I was even in favor of tank top -> sleeveless shirt, if only because I wasn't the one who would've had to think properly about the consequences
• it looks to me like shirt is approaching critical mass as some frankenstein attempt at grouping together all tops worn under other outside clothes. If we want to follow this train of thought, t-shirt vs camisole is not much different from t-shirt vs sleeveless shirt or pants vs shorts.

nonamethanks said in forum #426126:

The unarguable:

...

• tank tops, in common parlace, are a kind of sleeveless shirt, of which we have many tagged types

This is the only thing that really matters. By and large, tank tops are considered sleeveless shirts by most normal people, and as such, they would expect to find tank tops if they searched for sleeveless_shirt. I'm sorry that I keep repeating myself, but it's the truth - Danbooru is the only place where this is even a remotely controversial opinion.