Posted under Tags
nonamethanks said:
No, this name was stupid a decade ago and it's still stupid now. The tag should not be "otokonoko" for the same reason 1girl is not 1onna and breasts is not oppai.
counterargument: paizuri isn't titty_fuck or mammary_intercourse
EDIT: most Imageboards use titfuck, not those two, my mistake.
Updated by KalpacMuskoxen
This is part of why I said evazion should've stepped in immediately after the vote. Regardless of my own feelings on the change, and his feelings about how people interpret his comments given his authority over the website, having a decisive comment in support of NNT's decision would probably have quelled at least half of the people paying attention to this discussion.
We already know he implicitly supports it as I doubt NNT would've made such a big change without his permission, same as with stuff like topic #28612 (or, a counter-example focusing on evazion himself, the aforementioned topic #22080), but having something concrete in writing would help, especially as it would disallow folks from arguing otherwise based on comments from, at max, 11 years ago, and implicitly frame the discussion as "NNT against the users".
The otoko no ko -> trap change feels largely detrimental and I would strongly suggest a reversion. Otoko no ko is a broad term that can be used to describe any androgynous or effiminate male, and it is both a neutral, purely visual descriptor and useful search term. Trap has specific connotations of being a convincing male crossdresser, making it nonsensical as a "drop-in" replacement. "Femboy"... works, but its Western connotations are strongly sexual which is not necessarily fitting for what should be a purely visual descriptor. It also eliminates some of the androgyny associated with otoko no ko.
The main arguments I saw against otoko no ko were "using a Japanese term is strange" and "parity with reverse trap". The first one feels disingenuous, this is an anime imageboard and there are dozens of Japanese tags with English equivalents that are unused. Regarding reverse trap, I don't think that tag should exist, anyways. It's covered by tomboy and crossdressing (why isn't this broken into crossdressing (mtf) and crossdressing (ftm), anyways?)... plus Danbooru could potentially benefit from a "bifauxnen" tag which is a widely used term to describe handsome women.
Using two separate up/down-vote Bulk Update Requests (BURs) for a three-way choice (trap vs. femboy vs. otoko_no_ko) is fundamentally flawed. It leads to vote-splitting and an ambiguous result that both sides can interpret in their favor.
"More people voted for a change than for the status quo. Therefore, we should change it. Since trap got more votes than femboy, trap wins."
"The BUR to change to trap has more downvotes than upvotes. Therefore, the community rejected it. The result is invalid."
The debate is haunted by the ghost of the last admin who forced this change. Now, NNT is accused of doing the same thing by pushing through the trap change despite the messy vote.
There should be a ranked-choice 3-way vote. The options should be:
Unbreakable said:
Thank god, both of those sound dumb as hell and/or cringe, trap doesn't.
Both are cringe, but it's an example of using a Japanese word in lieu of an English equivalent. e621, rule34.xxx, The Big Imageboard, etc. use titfuck instead of paizuri for example. It's an example of us using a Japanese term when a more common English term exists (although I should have said titfuck instead of titty_fuck, my mistake.)
momoura-kun said:
The otoko no ko -> trap change feels largely detrimental and I would strongly suggest a reversion. Otoko no ko is a broad term that can be used to describe any androgynous or effiminate male, and it is both a neutral, purely visual descriptor and useful search term. Trap has specific connotations of being a convincing male crossdresser, making it nonsensical as a "drop-in" replacement. "Femboy"... works, but its Western connotations are strongly sexual which is not necessarily fitting for what should be a purely visual descriptor. It also eliminates some of the androgyny associated with otoko no ko.
You clearly have no idea what our tag is for. Everything you've said here is an argument against otokonoko, not in support of it. Trap is supposed to be for "convincing male crossdressers", or at least any male that convincingly passes for female regardless of how they're dressed. That's why it was originally called "trap" when it was created, before being forcibly renamed by an admin for dubious reasons. If otokonoko is such a broad term as you describe, then it's actually the worst possible thing we could use.
If our usage of otokonoko as the tag name all this time has given you the impression that what we were using the tag for is for any effeminate male, and not specifically ones that are easily mistaken for women, then that's just proof that the name should have never been changed in the first place.
The main arguments I saw against otoko no ko were "using a Japanese term is strange" and "parity with reverse trap". The first one feels disingenuous, this is an anime imageboard and there are dozens of Japanese tags with English equivalents that are unused. Regarding reverse trap, I don't think that tag should exist, anyways. It's covered by tomboy and crossdressing (why isn't this broken into crossdressing (mtf) and crossdressing (ftm), anyways?)... plus Danbooru could potentially benefit from a "bifauxnen" tag which is a widely used term to describe handsome women.
Barring some exceptions, Japanese terms are typically reserved for things that are uniquely or originally Japanese. Kabedon is for a well known Japanese trope. I don't have a defense for paizuri but unlike otoko no ko it's always been called that and wasn't renamed without giving time for people to disagree.
Reverse trap is not covered by tomboy and crossdressing. Not all handsome women are tomboys. You're just giving more proof you don't know what our tags are actually for.
Updated by blindVigil
男の娘 is a word that combines the classic term 男の子 (boy) with 娘 (girl), which has the same pronunciation. This word accurately expresses a male who looks like a girl. It's also officially used in the birthplaces of otaku culture such as pixiv, Twitter, and Niconico Douga.
On the other hand, the word "trap" overlaps in vocabulary with the existing English word "trap," which means a snare or ambush. Furthermore, the appearance of a male who looks like a girl is not adopted with the purpose of ensnaring or trapping someone, so calling them a "trap" is completely inaccurate and can lead to misunderstandings. There's no reason not to use otoko no ko, a term that has no room for misunderstanding, has a clear meaning, and is officially used in the heart of otaku culture. The term "trap" has absolutely no advantages.
KalpacMuskoxen said:
There should be a ranked-choice 3-way vote. The options should be:
- Change the primary tag to trap.
- Change the primary tag to femboy.
- Keep the primary tag as otoko_no_ko (or the corrected otokonoko).
I agree that the previous 2 BURs were very flawed.
I don't think that a simple 3-way majority poll would be any good. What if the majority of the people have trap > femboy >>>>>> otokonoko or femboy > trap >>>>>>>> otokonoko opinions, and the result turns out to be 30:30:40 for otokonoko? (BTW this happens in real-life politics. AFAIK not in the USA, but in most other democratic countries.)
I think it would be much more clear if everyone would just vote according to their preferences in simple 2-way BURs (in 2 or in 3 of them). E.g. if this BUR concludes, there can be a trap -> femboy or an otokonoko -> femboy BUR. Theoretically it is possible that we would get into a 3-way cycle, but I don't think that would be the case. And if we don't get in a 3-way cycle, we would get a winner (trap/femboy/otokonoko) which beats the other 2 options in simple 2-way BURs with simple majority.
In other words, we arrive at a local optimum with the property that every change from it gets downvoted.
Updated by reg panda
nonamethanks said:
And you don't see the problem with using the romanized term for "boy" to mean "trap"? English does not use kanji.
Why should we care about the relationship between English and Kanji here? This isn't a school encouraging proper English usage. I think Danbooru is an archive for classifying otaku images with clear hashtags.
The term 男の娘 is widely used on platforms like Pixiv and Twitter, which make up the vast majority of image sources for Danbooru. As i mentioned, it carries a clear and unambiguous meaning.
sa2ko said:
Why should we care about the relationship between English and Kanji here? This isn't a school encouraging proper English usage. I think Danbooru is an archive for classifying otaku images with clear hashtags.
The term 男の娘 is widely used on platforms like Pixiv and Twitter, which make up the vast majority of image sources for Danbooru. As i mentioned, it carries a clear and unambiguous meaning.
This is an english-speaking site, and we don't use kanji for tag names. "otokonoko" can be translated to mean both "trap" and just "boy", and nobody in the english community uses "otokonoko". Everyone just calls them trap.
sa2ko said:
男の娘 is a word that combines the classic term 男の子 (boy) with 娘 (girl), which has the same pronunciation. This word accurately expresses a male who looks like a girl. It's also officially used in the birthplaces of otaku culture such as pixiv, Twitter, and Niconico Douga.
On the other hand, the word "trap" overlaps in vocabulary with the existing English word "trap," which means a snare or ambush. Furthermore, the appearance of a male who looks like a girl is not adopted with the purpose of ensnaring or trapping someone, so calling them a "trap" is completely inaccurate and can lead to misunderstandings. There's no reason not to use otoko no ko, a term that has no room for misunderstanding, has a clear meaning, and is officially used in the heart of otaku culture. The term "trap" has absolutely no advantages.
男の娘 is not an "official word." It's slang just like "trap." The only difference is that 男の娘 is Japanese slang and "trap" is English speaking slang, both for similar concepts. Telling English speakers they aren't allowed to use their own independently developed slang because a Japanese equivalent exists is ridiculous.
Bringing character intent into the discussion is also just an absurd argument. Fictional characters don't have intent. Artists and authors do have intent, though, and they do often create these characters with the intent of them being "traps", either for the audience or other characters, usually for the sake of gags, regardless of whether the characters themselves ever intended to do this.
There would've been fewer problems if NNT said at the beginning "We're changing this no matter what. Pick your preference, but okoto no ko is 100% out." I understand he wants to avoid what his predecessor did, but using the votes as justification while interpreting them in a way that causes the pro-femboy side to boost the pro-trap side when there was no indication the BURs would be counted that way is going to make those users feel cheated out of their vote. If popularity is going to be used as a justification, there needs to be confidence that the votes were counted fairly. I'm not accusing NNT of misconduct, but we should at least be given an explanation of why the votes were interpreted as pro/anti change first, then trap vs. femboy after that, instead of trap vs. femboy vs. neither.
momoura-kun said:
Regarding reverse trap, I don't think that tag should exist, anyways. It's covered by tomboy and crossdressing (why isn't this broken into crossdressing (mtf) and crossdressing (ftm), anyways?)... plus Danbooru could potentially benefit from a "bifauxnen" tag which is a widely used term to describe handsome women.
Tomboy is mainly for active, athletic women. There are many cases of reverse trap where that would not apply. Users searching for tomboy probably wouldn't be looking for characters like Kino or Fujioka Haruhi.
blindVigil said:
男の娘 is not an "official word." It's slang just like "trap." The only difference is that 男の娘 is Japanese slang and "trap" is English speaking slang, both for similar concepts. Telling English speakers they aren't allowed to use their own independently developed slang because a Japanese equivalent exists is ridiculous.
Bringing character intent into the discussion is also just an absurd argument. Fictional characters don't have intent. Artists and authors do have intent, though, and they do often create these characters with the intent of them being "traps", either for the audience or other characters, usually for the sake of gags, regardless of whether the characters themselves ever intended to do this.
In the early days of the 男の娘 genre, content that aimed to "trap" readers by featuring male characters who could genuinely be mistaken for females was certainly dominant. However, The "trap" has become too limiting. It's an outdated, unclear, and highly misleading term. If it absolutely must be used, it should be reserved as a subgenre of "otoko no ko" for specific images, like post #3613144.
sa2ko said:
In the early days of the 男の娘 genre, content that aimed to "trap" readers by featuring male characters who could genuinely be mistaken for females was certainly dominant. However, The "trap" has become too limiting. It's an outdated, unclear, and highly misleading term. If it absolutely must be used, it should be reserved as a subgenre of "otoko no ko" for specific images, like post #3613144.
Please read the wiki definition for trap before you post in this topic again, because you are obviously completely clueless as to its usage on this site.
momoura-kun said:
Regarding reverse trap, I don't think that tag should exist, anyways. It's covered by tomboy and crossdressing (why isn't this broken into crossdressing (mtf) and crossdressing (ftm), anyways?)... plus Danbooru could potentially benefit from a "bifauxnen" tag which is a widely used term to describe handsome women.
blindVigil said:
Reverse trap is not covered by tomboy and crossdressing. Not all handsome women are tomboys. You're just giving more proof you don't know what our tags are actually for.
Blank_User said:
Tomboy is mainly for active, athletic women. There are many cases of reverse trap where that would not apply. Users searching for tomboy probably wouldn't be looking for characters like Kino or Fujioka Haruhi.
I know it's relevant to here since that topic inspired this one to begin with, but I think it'd be more productive if y'all moved these comments to topic #31690 or even a new thread focusing on organizing handsome women between the various tags of reverse trap, tomboy, a theoretical narrowed crossdressing tag in the same vein as genderswap, etc.
If nothing else, the suggestion for genderswap-style tags for crossdressing feels like something people would be on board with, so that should get its own thread.
Blank_User said:
There would've been fewer problems if NNT said at the beginning "We're changing this no matter what. Pick your preference, but okoto no ko is 100% out."
...
I agree with this, and if it was posited as a vote like that in the first place it probably would've been clearer. I understand that the BURs maybe were made too early into the topic, but in that case a new topic specifically for this should've been started.
