post #6066604
This should probably receive a loli tag, but I am new and wanted to check with the opinion of more exprienced ppl.
It is also in the "most viewed" list in case it matters in anyway.
Posted under General
post #6066604
This should probably receive a loli tag, but I am new and wanted to check with the opinion of more exprienced ppl.
It is also in the "most viewed" list in case it matters in anyway.
post #6040401 no loli
comfykotatsu said:
post #6066604
This should probably receive a loli tag, but I am new and wanted to check with the opinion of more exprienced ppl.
It is also in the "most viewed" list in case it matters in anyway.
Definitely loli
post #6069006 may need to be shota
post #5827131 - not loli, just petite woman
SWA_YAMAYURI said:
No.
Unbreakable said:
I would say no.
user_126 said:
When in doubt, tag as loli, for albert's sake.
I've taken a closer look at this tag and I'm very confused by the parameters of it. Why exactly are we given a range of 3 to 12 years?
The idea that this would only refer to "pre-teen" girls seems to have been asserted by fiat by Albert back in 2005: https://danbooru.donmai.us/wiki_page_versions/diff?otherpage=78&thispage=77&commit=Diff
This seems to conflict with observable Japanese use of the term, though.
1978 (Cybele Magazine) ロリ . コン ( ロリータ コンプレックス ) 10~15
1979 "lolicon count" Lupin to Count Cogliostro when he wants to marry Clarisse (clearly older than 12, there was a 10-year time-skip and she looked older than 2 when first seen younger)
1982 (Urusei Yatsura) roughly "an ailment of the soul in middle-aged men, wherein they fall for bishojo" the Monk in ep 32 (or 16a) of Urusei Yatsura あゝ個人教授！ (Ā Kojin Kyōju = "Oh Lone Teacher!") referring to Lum
1988 Miyazaki roughly " [My female protagonists] immediately become playthings for Lolita Complex males" - note that Nausicaa, one of his protagonists, is sixteen
1996 in ep 39 the term gets used to accuse a doctor who is doing physical on middle-school girls (I believe 5th grade) but most of them are incredibly busty, they are definitely all mid-pubescent not prepubescent.
Then in 2005 we have Albert assert an upper limit of 12... why? This seems incredibly western-centric. The concept of "pre-teen" only exists in languages like English and German, you don't see it in French or Japanese because of the naming structure of their numbers.
Pixiv did not exist at the time (it was created in 2007) so what was the basis of this, in terms of Japanese precedent? Did I miss some kind of discussion on the 2ch boards which led to this?
We see in years following 2005 there's still clearly no "maximum 12" in anime:
2006 pg 5 of ch 11 of GinTama, Matako "Senpai!! You're such a lolicon!! She broke in here, we can't be so soft!" regarding Kagura, who is fourteen
2007 ep 2 of Lucky Star, Konata: "If you fell in love with mom, and you dote on a daughter like me... That makes you a lolicon, right?" Konata is 17
It doesn't appear the idea of establishing any kind of "upper limit" to loli to forbid teens (ironically ruling out girls explicitly called loli like Lum and Clarisse) is apparent in anime until the mid-2010s (nearly a decade after Albert insisted on a 12-maximum for loli) and it seems born on a niche re-application by high-school boys appropriating a term in a narrower field of storytelling.
The first instance seems to be 15yo Jurai Ando in InoBato where in 2014 (ep 4) he says "I am a lolicon. A true lolicon. My strike zone for women lies between seven and twelve years old.".
You have to understand though, that lolicon in Japan doesn't necessarily mean an exact age but an age DIFFERENCE, so it would be "lolicon" for middle-aged men like Count Cogliostro and the UY teacher to pursue late-teens girls like Clarisse+Lum, but not lolicon for boys their own age to pursue them.
I believe Jurai Ando's usage is just a metaphor for what could possibly be lolicon-ISH for a boy his age, which is to go after elementary or middle schoolers, since he is a high-schooler.
KonoSuba's Megumin (who is 13) is perturbed also in 2014 when Kazuma expresses worry about being labelled a lolicon for bathing with her. Kazuma later (when finding out Megumin is turning 14 the following month) talks about her no longer being a loli character when that happens.
Jurai and Kazuma are still viewing this from a high-schooler perspective though: when middle school girls become high-schoolers they are in the same social bracket and so it's no longer viewed as lolicon to date them, but it would still be lolicon for a college man or middle-aged teacher/count to date that high-school girl.
What's extremely notable in recent reference is how Shield Hero uses it in episode 3. This is right after Raphtalia gets bigger: she's initially a preteen (no puberty) when Naofumi buys her, and is a mid-pubescent adolescent after having gained XP. Naofumi complains that the country is "full of lolicons" when they start giving Raphtalia extra attention as she buds into her womanhood.
Raphtalia was completely ignored as a young pre-teen pre-adolescent, she basically didn't exist (nobody cared but Naofumi) to most people, as a subhuman. Clearly there was no "lolicon" at work in her favor until she aged up into a teenager. Which shows even in 2019 the usage in Japan is still heavily focused on loli meaning teen girls and not preteen girls.
I imagine the move away from this in western boorus like this has to do with pre-adolescent fans feeling left out and not having the vocabulary to describe their genre and so they have taken far too literally the subjective abuse of lolicon slang by Jurai and Kazuma not understanding the context.
There was basically a lack of awareness of the alternatives Cybele had presented in 1978:
★ ハイ . コン ( ヘイジ コンプレックス ) 5~10
★ アリ . コン ( アリス コンプレックス ) 7~12
I imagine splitting the present loli tag into hei and ali would be a lot of work, but it should be a long-term goal in the interest of technical accuracy and conforming to actual applied Japanese usage in popular culture. The present "adolescent" tag (when indicating a female) is what should actually be called loli when it's applied.
This is a study in etymology I think is worth having here, let's be students of history - why did Albert insist on these "preteen" parameters of loli, why did we go along with it, and what was the Japanese basis?
As Takahashi's monk defines it, the subject of lolicon is a "bishoujo" which is basically just "beautiful shoujo". Beauty being subjective, it ultimately comes down to what the term "shoujo" means in age parameters, which I think can encompass both middle-schoolers (gr7-8 age 12-13) and high-schoolers (gr9-12 age 14-17) but I think it'd be rare to see a grade-schooler (gr 1-6 age 6-11) called a shoujo, and certainly not a preschooler.
Consider for example Youjo Senki is not called "Shoujo Senki" - the precedent set there is that 11yo Tanya is too young to be a "shoujo" which actually means Tanya would not be classified as "loli" according to Rumiko Takahashi's writing, unless it is possible to be both youjo+shoujo seimultaneously.
I definitely think "preteen" is showing a complete western appropriation because teenhood semantically does not exist in Japanese and I don't know of any evidence they've adapted that English nomenclature to their counting system.
One of the earlier contrasts which exists in the hentai OVAs both title "Lolita Anime" in the 80s is that the ロリータアニメ from Wonder Kids in Feb 1984 at https://myanimelist.net/anime/4813/Lolita_Anime which in the 3rd volume featured "Miu" who was younger than the girls in the 1st two volumes (seemed like a middle-schooler) but even if she became hte most popular loli of the Wonder Kids series it doesn't mean the Japanese considered Youko and Kyouko (from vol 1) or Itsuko (vol 2) not to be lolis.
Updated
The age range of 2-12 is just a rough outline that's supposed to give you an idea what to look for. In practice, a picture of any childlike character might be tagged as loli regardless of their age. Additionally, you are citing some sources which are nearly 50 years old. Definitions might have changed.
And it's known that our definitions differ from Japanese ones at times. Nowadays "loli" is acceptable to say about a SFW, wholesome image featuring younger girls, but on Danbooru it's NSFW-only. Similarly, "newhalf" is originally a term most commonly used for transgender women (occassionally also for transgender men, according to some sources), but here it's used to mean just "futanari without a vagina/vulva".
Updated
KagayakuShiningGate said:
The age range of 2-12 is just a rough outline that's supposed to give you an idea what to look for.
How do we decide on what to assign though? It seems like something we shouldn't come up with on our own.
In practice, a picture of any childlike character might be tagged as loli regardless of their age. Additionally, you are citing some sources which are nearly 50 years old. Definitions might have changed.
Big 'might', and if it does we should be giving examples as to where we got the idea.
If we're going to give exact numerical references the ideal is these are derived from exact numerical references in popular culture. That's why I pointed out ItoBata and KonoSuba from 2014 in particular (max 12 and max 13 respectively) but also explained my objections to them.
Both of these came out nine years after Albert made the change though. Did he force a meme, or did someone else force the meme and both Albert and these two series reacted to it?
And it's known that our definitions differ from Japanese ones at times. Nowadays "loli" is acceptable to say about a SFW, wholesome image featuring younger girls, but on Danbooru it's NSFW-only. Similarly, "newhalf" is originally a term most commonly used for transgender women (occassionally also for transgender men, according to some sources), but here it's used to mean just "futanari without a vagina/vulva".
It seems wrong for us to appropriate their slang and then start changing it, it leads to an unnecessary disconnect. Are we just playing fast-and-loose and doing our fiat-by-weeaboo? Do we have no humility and deference to the giants who preceded us?
KagayakuShiningGate said:
The age range of 2-12 is just a rough outline that's supposed to give you an idea what to look for. In practice, a picture of any childlike character might be tagged as loli regardless of their age.
This, and Danbooru’s terms are tag based. Loli was never meant to be immediately nsfw, I have to say it’s true that some western communities interpret and react wrongly negatively to the term. But here it’s just used as a way to filter out nsfw child posts so they can be hidden to the public. In practice the entire "adolescent" section in loli’s wiki would be called "loli" anyway. I’m not sure what you’re trying to say, are you suggesting that we expand loli’s definition?
And the same goes for shota, in practice it’s often used to describe younger shounen too. It’s really just talking about characters that aren’t too physical mature, there’s no strict age range.
Updated
loli and shota as we use them are entirely and exclusively based on common western usage of the word in regard to a character's appearance. Yes, Konata is a loli, because she looks like a prepubescent girl. Her age is irrelevant. You wouldn't call Inoue Orihime, 15 at the beginning of Bleach, a loli just because of her age.
It really doesn't matter how Japan uses the words, because this is not a site for Japanese users. It is a site for English speakers, the majority of which are not living in nor native to Japan. This is also the first time I've heard anyone claim that it's an age gap thing, and not an appearance thing, so I'm skeptical. There's plenty of evidence of Japanese people on sites like Pixiv using it at least similarly to how we do, though usually not limiting it to NSFW content as we do, so I honestly fail to see how it matters what it meant 30 years ago. What matters is what it means now, and there's plenty evidence to support our usage of the term, even if it's not 100% accurate. Technical accuracy is a fool's errand on a site like this.
Look, it doesn't matter what the definition of the term according to some old magazine is. Our definitions of loli and shota are what they are primarly for legal reasons, because hosting this kind of content in the open means putting a target on your forehead. At the end of the day they mean "explicit pictures of underage-looking characters that hosting providers and payment processors would strangle you over for having in the open". The tags need to be what they are for reasons more important than semantical accuracy.
As everyone else has mentioned, I think you're overly focusing on the given age range, because loli as it is used, and affirmed in the current wiki, is about "girls who appear to be" underage. If you want to change the wiki to remove the mention of preadolescent and just have it be underaged, I feel like most folks would agree, since that's how it is basically done anyway. We don't even have a tag for adolescent characters, despite your mentioning of it multiple times.
Additionally, I can bring up my own points countering your usage of lolicon in the Japanese subcultural context through the research of Patrick W. Galbraith, who points out the usage of lolicon to effectively mean 'moe', cuteness (think why lolita fashion is called such) or to be more specific in an anime and manga context, attraction to fictional characters. One of the core lolicon magazines of the early 1980s, Manga Burikko, initially had images of gravure photography of young girls, but by late 1983, finally succumbed to reader pressure and removed the photos, which remained the case up to the magazine's end. Does this mean we should shift the usage of "loli" to reflect this? No, because while the remnants of this usage of lolicon remain today, with the rise of moe in the 90s, everyone shifted to using that word instead, including Galbraith himself once his timeline reaches and passes the 90s.
If you look up anime works involving underaged female characters in pornographic situations, you'll see the majority, whether they be 3 or 17, using loli, whether it be here on Danbooru, reuploaded doujinshi across various hentai websites, or on the Japanese internet. Searching for ヘイジコンプレックス, アリスコンプレックス, ヘイジ・コンプレックス, アリス・コンプレックス, ハイコン and アリコン on Pixiv basically gives me nothing, so if not even the Japanese are using them, then there's no reason to consider them ourselves. I had never seen anything mentioned on age gaps ever playing a role, and to me sounds like you're doing what you're accusing Danbooru of doing, imposing your own belief on what loli is. We wouldn't be able to apply the Japanese usage of adolescent anyway, because 青年期 goes up to the age of 24 at bare minimum, and can even be used to refer to folks up to 40 depending on context (also shounen, ages 5 to 14, can be used in a gender-neutral fashion).
tyciol said:
I've taken a closer look at this tag and I'm very confused by the parameters of it. Why exactly are we given a range of 3 to 12 years?
The idea that this would only refer to "pre-teen" girls seems to have been asserted by fiat by Albert back in 2005: https://danbooru.donmai.us/wiki_page_versions/diff?otherpage=78&thispage=77&commit=Diff
This seems to conflict with observable Japanese use of the term, though.
1978 (Cybele Magazine) ロリ . コン ( ロリータ コンプレックス ) 10~15
1979 "lolicon count" Lupin to Count Cogliostro when he wants to marry Clarisse (clearly older than 12, there was a 10-year time-skip and she looked older than 2 when first seen younger)
1982 (Urusei Yatsura) roughly "an ailment of the soul in middle-aged men, wherein they fall for bishojo" the Monk in ep 32 (or 16a) of Urusei Yatsura あゝ個人教授！ (Ā Kojin Kyōju = "Oh Lone Teacher!") referring to Lum
1988 Miyazaki roughly " [My female protagonists] immediately become playthings for Lolita Complex males" - note that Nausicaa, one of his protagonists, is sixteen
1996 in ep 39 the term gets used to accuse a doctor who is doing physical on middle-school girls (I believe 5th grade) but most of them are incredibly busty, they are definitely all mid-pubescent not prepubescent.
Then in 2005 we have Albert assert an upper limit of 12... why? This seems incredibly western-centric. The concept of "pre-teen" only exists in languages like English and German, you don't see it in French or Japanese because of the naming structure of their numbers.
Pixiv did not exist at the time (it was created in 2007) so what was the basis of this, in terms of Japanese precedent? Did I miss some kind of discussion on the 2ch boards which led to this?
We see in years following 2005 there's still clearly no "maximum 12" in anime:
2006 pg 5 of ch 11 of GinTama, Matako "Senpai!! You're such a lolicon!! She broke in here, we can't be so soft!" regarding Kagura, who is fourteen
2007 ep 2 of Lucky Star, Konata: "If you fell in love with mom, and you dote on a daughter like me... That makes you a lolicon, right?" Konata is 17
It doesn't appear the idea of establishing any kind of "upper limit" to loli to forbid teens (ironically ruling out girls explicitly called loli like Lum and Clarisse) is apparent in anime until the mid-2010s (nearly a decade after Albert insisted on a 12-maximum for loli) and it seems born on a niche re-application by high-school boys appropriating a term in a narrower field of storytelling.
The first instance seems to be 15yo Jurai Ando in InoBato where in 2014 (ep 4) he says "I am a lolicon. A true lolicon. My strike zone for women lies between seven and twelve years old.".
You have to understand though, that lolicon in Japan doesn't necessarily mean an exact age but an age DIFFERENCE, so it would be "lolicon" for middle-aged men like Count Cogliostro and the UY teacher to pursue late-teens girls like Clarisse+Lum, but not lolicon for boys their own age to pursue them.
I believe Jurai Ando's usage is just a metaphor for what could possibly be lolicon-ISH for a boy his age, which is to go after elementary or middle schoolers, since he is a high-schooler.
KonoSuba's Megumin (who is 13) is perturbed also in 2014 when Kazuma expresses worry about being labelled a lolicon for bathing with her. Kazuma later (when finding out Megumin is turning 14 the following month) talks about her no longer being a loli character when that happens.
Jurai and Kazuma are still viewing this from a high-schooler perspective though: when middle school girls become high-schoolers they are in the same social bracket and so it's no longer viewed as lolicon to date them, but it would still be lolicon for a college man or middle-aged teacher/count to date that high-school girl.
What's extremely notable in recent reference is how Shield Hero uses it in episode 3. This is right after Raphtalia gets bigger: she's initially a preteen (no puberty) when Naofumi buys her, and is a mid-pubescent adolescent after having gained XP. Naofumi complains that the country is "full of lolicons" when they start giving Raphtalia extra attention as she buds into her womanhood.
Raphtalia was completely ignored as a young pre-teen pre-adolescent, she basically didn't exist (nobody cared but Naofumi) to most people, as a subhuman. Clearly there was no "lolicon" at work in her favor until she aged up into a teenager. Which shows even in 2019 the usage in Japan is still heavily focused on loli meaning teen girls and not preteen girls.
I imagine the move away from this in western boorus like this has to do with pre-adolescent fans feeling left out and not having the vocabulary to describe their genre and so they have taken far too literally the subjective abuse of lolicon slang by Jurai and Kazuma not understanding the context.
There was basically a lack of awareness of the alternatives Cybele had presented in 1978:
★ ハイ . コン ( ヘイジ コンプレックス ) 5~10
★ アリ . コン ( アリス コンプレックス ) 7~12I imagine splitting the present loli tag into hei and ali would be a lot of work, but it should be a long-term goal in the interest of technical accuracy and conforming to actual applied Japanese usage in popular culture. The present "adolescent" tag (when indicating a female) is what should actually be called loli when it's applied.
This is a study in etymology I think is worth having here, let's be students of history - why did Albert insist on these "preteen" parameters of loli, why did we go along with it, and what was the Japanese basis?
As Takahashi's monk defines it, the subject of lolicon is a "bishoujo" which is basically just "beautiful shoujo". Beauty being subjective, it ultimately comes down to what the term "shoujo" means in age parameters, which I think can encompass both middle-schoolers (gr7-8 age 12-13) and high-schoolers (gr9-12 age 14-17) but I think it'd be rare to see a grade-schooler (gr 1-6 age 6-11) called a shoujo, and certainly not a preschooler.
Consider for example Youjo Senki is not called "Shoujo Senki" - the precedent set there is that 11yo Tanya is too young to be a "shoujo" which actually means Tanya would not be classified as "loli" according to Rumiko Takahashi's writing, unless it is possible to be both youjo+shoujo seimultaneously.
I definitely think "preteen" is showing a complete western appropriation because teenhood semantically does not exist in Japanese and I don't know of any evidence they've adapted that English nomenclature to their counting system.
One of the earlier contrasts which exists in the hentai OVAs both title "Lolita Anime" in the 80s is that the ロリータアニメ from Wonder Kids in Feb 1984 at https://myanimelist.net/anime/4813/Lolita_Anime which in the 3rd volume featured "Miu" who was younger than the girls in the 1st two volumes (seemed like a middle-schooler) but even if she became hte most popular loli of the Wonder Kids series it doesn't mean the Japanese considered Youko and Kyouko (from vol 1) or Itsuko (vol 2) not to be lolis.
... tyciol...?? just a random question. Are you TYC from the ATF booru? Yes or no!?
