Standard on collaboration skins?

Many series have collaborations with real life brands, stores and other copyrights. They're often non-playable, so there isn't a tagging convention for them, which caused some inconsistencies, even within the same series.

There are two ways of tagging them. The first is to create costume tags. A lot of them are missing the collaboration copyright. Some smaller copyrights don't even have a tag.

The second is the complete opposite. Add the collaboration copyright and no costume tags. This is mainly supported by the argument "no costume tag if you can find the outfit with a two-tag search", which I don't agree with. Either way, it has caused some tags to be nuked and prevented others to be created.

If we go with the latter, most of the existing collaboration tags should be nuked, because even in a series as messy as Fate, *_(fate) lawson is a two-tag search, and most characters don't get more than one outfit per collaboration. But if I submit a BUR to nuke them I doubt people will agree with it, which means, following this logic, we should create costume tags for other collaboration outfits.

Using lawson as an example:

lawson: 2315 posts
lawson copytags:1: 11 posts
lawson -*(*lawson*)* -copytags:1: 1264 posts
lawson *(*lawson*)*: 1040 posts
-lawson *(*lawson*)* -tanya_(zeke_lawson): 771 posts

I'm going to stand against the creation of costume tags for these for one simple reason. This would contribute to the slippery slope of costume tagging spreading beyond its traditional confines. I always disagreed with what had been stated back in topic #24007, and believe that Genshin should not have enabled/popularized the trend of tagging collaboration skins that did not have in-game equivalents. To me, it was an obvious case of maximalist tagging where the taggers were itching aggressively at the thought of tagging skins in a gacha game, but were denied that because Genshin was unusually light at the start when it came to skins, so they grasped at anything they could and it was accepted because it felt in line with gacha skin tagging. Also the fact that they were prominently drawn in fanart, that was the actual justification to their creation, but no one cares about nuance, especially not maximalist taggers.

As had been discussed in more recent cases such as topic #32523 (as well as more specifically, forum #292585 and forum #347337, and to a lesser extent, forum #240677), costume tagging is always dealing with the permissability of boundaries, what is acceptable to be tagged and what isn't, and at what point you reach the event horizon, the point where you open the can of worms, the floodgates, and cause a flood of costume tags that no one wants (see the recent case of topic #32923 on Steven Universe). I firmly believe standardizing illustration-only costume tagging like this is a can of worms, because suddenly you're saying we should be giving stuff such as post #1313539 their own tags, and in the process people will go "why does this character only have this costume tag when this or that costume would be way more important as a costume tag?" and start demanding we make costume tags generally for that copyright. Do you want Toaru Majutsu no Index, Evangelion, and K-On costume tags?? Because those are where your dominoes will lead us.

And yes, this does mean I believe the existing chartags should be nuked, if they cannot be used in-game.

Ngl I'm against chartags for them because I am not gardening the collab skins for BanG Dream!.

More seriously, basically what Damian said. Chartags would open the floodgates for absolutely anything getting them, even outfits that are actually quite generic like post #9980704. I was against Togawa Sakiko (Sweets Paradise) for this reason too, the copytag is sufficient.

And to emphasize the fear of floodgates opening, I'm reminded of what evazion said back in forum #258666. It happened to school uniforms, it happened to animal ears, it happened to hair ornaments, it happened with colored clothes, and it could sure as hell happen with costume tags.

Damian0358 said:

I'm going to stand against the creation of costume tags for these for one simple reason. This would contribute to the slippery slope of costume tagging spreading beyond its traditional confines. I always disagreed with what had been stated back in topic #24007, and believe that Genshin should not have enabled/popularized the trend of tagging collaboration skins that did not have in-game equivalents. [...]

Unfortunately barely anyone responded to that post, people seemed to support Genshin Impact's case so I let it slid. If nuking was the intent we could have nip it in the bud two years ago. Genshin Impact isn't the only one, Fate and Kantai Collection also have extensive amounts of collaboration tags. I don't know if it's because they learned it from Genshin, but Fate has its history with costume tags, I don't know if nuking its tags will be accepted.

If we nuke them. A concern I have and has been mentioned elsewhere is that some characters have multiple collaboration outfits with the same copyright, making it less evident with a character collaboration_copyright search. I'm not sure if we want to give special treatment for these characters.

There might also be a similar impact on the opposite side. Just like maximalist tagging can open floodgates, mass nuking all of these tags will also open doors to nuke other non-playable skins. All of a sudden people are asking to nuke all the npc forms, boss forms, alt age forms, real life event costumes and more. I'm not sure that's something I want to see.

Someone tried doing this to Wuthering Waves. I stopped it immediately in its tracks when I saw it. I share Damian's sentiments on this topic and I don't want to enable maximalism on something that is neither drawn often or is already searchable a different way. Being able to find unique designs and content is great, but people do have to realise there's a limit to that. The ridiculous line of reasoning that would justify this would also potentially churn out the horror of tagging what is literally just alternative colouring for an otherwise established skin, which some old gacha games like Honkai Impact 3rd have[1].

[1]: Have as in, they have skins that are just a palette swap. I don't know of any Danbooru posts of them but I at least know none of them have separate tagging because so help me Fumimi I would BUR those out of existence.

I feel like the list in wikis of collaborated copyrights needs to be updated first because there's no way Lawson only has 7 of them. I'm fine with detaching something like March 7th (Hunt) (Honkai: Star Rail) into March 7Th (Honkai: Star Rail) and KFC though.

Fuck, autopilot brain. March 7th (Kfc) (Honkai: Star Rail).

Some of these collaboration outfits are real popular for fanart of FGO specifically (probably because fanart of FGO itself is real popular, plus servants aren't usually portrayed in contemporary casual clothing in-game). Miyamoto Musashi (FGO x Pasela Resorts) even later got a figure for it. It also feels weird to tag something like post #3352139 with Lawson.

On the other hand, I never should have made subtags for all the Animate Cafe costumes and the like. That's a uniform.

WRS said:

The ridiculous line of reasoning that would justify this would also potentially churn out the horror of tagging what is literally just alternative colouring for an otherwise established skin, which some old gacha games like Honkai Impact 3rd have[1].

[1]: Have as in, they have skins that are just a palette swap. I don't know of any Danbooru posts of them but I at least know none of them have separate tagging because so help me Fumimi I would BUR those out of existence.

Unfortunately, if you have an issue with that, then you're not going to like the decision reached in topic #26181.

Ylimegirl said:

Some of these collaboration outfits are real popular for fanart of FGO specifically (probably because fanart of FGO itself is real popular, plus servants aren't usually portrayed in contemporary casual clothing in-game). Miyamoto Musashi (FGO x Pasela Resorts) even later got a figure for it. It also feels weird to tag something like post #3352139 with Lawson.

Yeah, this goes back to what I said in my first post, that the reason why Genshin made its collab costume tags was moreso because they became real popular in fanart. However, as I said that, I also pointed out using "popularity" as a measure on whether to make a tag requires nuance. As I explained in topic #26611, the reason why maximalist tagging wins out discursively is because it is incredibly simple - see design, tag it as its own thing, move on - because anything other than maximalist tagging requires the inconsistent application of boundaries, which may result in tags not being made (which leads to debates later on why something wasn't tagged), while maximalist tagging always ensures tags get made.

Esperantisto said:

I feel like the list in wikis of collaborated copyrights needs to be updated first because there's no way Lawson only has 7 of them.

A wiki getting outdated? Say it ain't so!

Honestly, it's probably more practical to list the collab in the collaber's wiki and not the collabee's, because Lawson and similar convenience stores do way too many of them, which is incidentally part of why making collab costume chartags is such a can of worms. Like, again, this could potentially result in Peanuts costume tags. SNOOPY COSTUME TAGS!

BUR #48213 has been rejected.

At least this can be done.

*kiehls'* and *(mcdonalds)* seem to be typos.

Needs some input from @MaskedAvenger or someone else working on Kantai Collection about akebono (12th anniversary) (kancolle) and yura (maizuru) (kancolle) which are lawson outfits turned into something else.

BUR #48214 has been rejected.

mass update *animate_girls_festival* -> copy:animate_girls_festival
mass update *bacchus_taste_jelly* -> copy:bacchus_(dong-a)
mass update *guerlain* -> copy:guerlain
mass update *heytea* -> copy:heytea
mass update *ipstar* -> copy:ipstar
mass update *lafary* -> copy:lafary
mass update *luckin_coffee* -> copy:luckin_coffee
mass update *mega_mgc_coffee* -> copy:mega_mgc_coffee
mass update *pizza_alvolo* -> copy:pizza_alvolo
category cadillac -> copyright
category familymart -> copyright
category oneplus -> copyright

Create tags for untagged collaboration copyrights, and turn gentag copyrights of collaboration outfits to copytags.

BUR #48358 has been rejected.

Getting downvotes, as expected. Those who agree with Damian, you people need to vote if you want to support your opinion. Here's the second vote, have fun.

Can a nuke request use wildcard searches?

Don't forget to approved the above BURs first before this BUR is approved, if it gets to be.

Still in need of opinions about characters who have more than one outfit per collaboration.

magcolo said:

BUR #48213 has been rejected.

Show

mass update *(animate)* -animate_(company) -> animate_(company)
mass update *(animate_cafe)* -animate_cafe -> animate_cafe
mass update *(cadillac)* -cadillac -> cadillac
mass update *(discovery)_(genshin_impact) -discovery_channel -> discovery_channel
mass update *(familymart)* -familymart -> familymart
mass update *(gigo)* -gigo -> gigo
mass update *(post_office)* -japan_post_service -> japan_post_service
mass update ~*(kfc)* ~croissant_(seven_in_the_morning)_(arknights) ~exusiai_(city_rider)_(arknights) ~ifrit_(children's_party)_(arknights) -yuu_(kfc) -kfc -> kfc
mass update *kiehls'* -kiehl's -> kiehl's
mass update *(*lawson*)* -tanya_(zeke_lawson) -lawson -> lawson
mass update *(m&g)* -m&g_stationery -> m&g_stationery
mass update *(mcdonalds)* -mcdonald's -> mcdonald's
mass update *(mom's_touch)* -mom's_touch -> mom's_touch
mass update *(oneplus)* -oneplus -> oneplus
mass update *(pizza_hut)* -pizza_hut -> pizza_hut
mass update ~*(samsung)* ~*galaxy_store* -samsung -> samsung
mass update *(sweets_paradise)* -sweets_paradise -> sweets_paradise
mass update *(xiaomi)* -xiaomi -> xiaomi
mass update *(zozotown)* -zozotown -> zozotown

At least this can be done.

*kiehls'* and *(mcdonalds)* seem to be typos.

Needs some input from @MaskedAvenger or someone else working on Kantai Collection about akebono (12th anniversary) (kancolle) and yura (maizuru) (kancolle) which are lawson outfits turned into something else.

I'm not sure on the appropriateness of tagging every single appearance of the Arknights outfits with kfc considering that some of the outfits themselves have no specific KFC connection and half of the servers use legally distinct Rhodes Kitchen branding instead.

post #7654799 is specifically about Rhodes Kitchen, for instance.

tamuraakemi said:

I'm not sure on the appropriateness of tagging every single appearance of the Arknights outfits with kfc considering that some of the outfits themselves have no specific KFC connection and half of the servers use legally distinct Rhodes Kitchen branding instead.

post #7654799 is specifically about Rhodes Kitchen, for instance.

That can be said to most collaboration outfits, their design doesn't have much connection with the copyright itself, we tag the copyright anyway, it's just how copyright is done. Rhodes Kitchen is like "censorship" so they can be released on other servers, the origin of the outfits are still from the KFC collaboration. This BUR just follows what has been done. If we start tagging copyright based on the percentage of connection the design has with the copyright, I imagine it can get very inconvenient. I'll keep them for now, if people come to a consensus I will update the BUR. This also means that the posts currently tagged with KFC should have it removed.

No one is going to be looking for Samsung and expect to see post #9883086, or Kfc and see post #9210501. A lot of these are just character costumes with no real connection to the "copyright" of the collab. Nuking the costume tags and replacing them with copyrights just pollutes the copyright tags (which should, in my opinion, be reserved for posts with some actual representation of the collab brand) and makes the costumes harder to discover and search for.

If a specific costume is not notable or distinct enough to be worth tagging (like the mentioned recolors) or better served by a gen tag like plugsuit (evangelion) or school uniform, that's a discussion that can be had about those specific tags.

For instance, for some of these costume tags it seems like tagging with lawson and employee_uniform instead could be appropriate, because they aren't a unique outfit and they do visually represent the collab brand. But broadening that to a rule like "because a costume was created for a collab, don't tag it" doesn't seem justified to me.

This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.

This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 45 days.

The bulk update request #48213 (forum #389093) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.

This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 45 days.