Danbooru

[REJECTED] Tag alias: toad -> kinopio

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Shinjidude

To quote Evazion from 10 years ago when naming policy was being hashed out:

Evazion said:

... I think the best policy would be to always go with whatever name is the most well known in the West. ...

This ended up being more or less the de facto policy.

We default to the Japanese names in most cases because they are the most consistent, and the first and best known to people who watch subs or fansubs of new shows, which are typically the first means by which people at large experience copyrights today. For games though, especially old games, the majority of Danbooru's users will have experienced them first via a localized version of the game (if there is one), most often in English. As a result things like Mario stay with their English localization. For Pokénon, the character names from the anime series usually keep their Japanese names, as anime fans would often encounter the Japanese names first, but the names of the hundreds of Pokémon themselves keep their localized names from the games. It's not 100% consistent, but it tends to make things easier for people here in general when it comes to tagging and searching.

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Provence

Shinjidude said:

To quote Evazion from 10 years ago when naming policy was being hashed out:

This ended up being more or less the de facto policy.

We default to the Japanese names in most cases because they are the most consistent, and the first and best known to people who watch subs or fansubs of new shows, which are typically the first means by which people at large experience copyrights today. For games though, especially old games, the majority of Danbooru's users will have experienced them first via a localized version of the game (if there is one), most often in English. As a result things like Mario stay with their English localization. For Pokénon, the character names from the anime series usually keep their Japanese names, as anime fans would often encounter the Japanese names first, but the names of the hundreds of Pokémon themselves keep their localized names from the games. It's not 100% consistent, but it tends to make things easier for people here in general when it comes to tagging and searching.

If that's the case then why do we still use the jap. name for Misty for example?
Consistent naming in the west, very popular.

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evazion

BUR #1970 has been approved by @Hillside_Moose.

create alias rosetta_(mario) -> rosalina
remove alias luma -> chiko_(mario)

Reason: Rosalina and Luma are the only major Mario characters we're using Japanese names for (cf topic #11048, topic #11650). For everything else we're using English names. This includes:

I stand by what I said 10 years ago. We should prefer the names that are most commonly used and recognized by Danbooru users. Mario is one of those franchises where few people know or recognize the original Japanese names.

EDIT: aliasing chiko_(mario) -> luma requires removing the existing alias before the chiko_(mario) -> luma alias can be made.

EDIT: The bulk update request #1970 (forum #155429) has been approved by @Hillside_Moose.

Updated by DanbooruBot

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AngryZapdos MaskedAvenger Danielx21
Provence

iridescent_slime said:

Why do we use the unqualified toad, anyway? Shouldn't it be toad_(mario)? This seems like an open invitation for mistagging.

Not so sure about that one. Sure, there is a real English word but most people will use the frog tag. I don't think that's necessary at all since the mistaggings seem to be very, very minor compared to how long Danbooru exists.

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Shinjidude

Lacrimosa said:

If that's the case then why do we still use the jap. name for Misty for example?
Consistent naming in the west, very popular.

She's sort of an edge/exception case, as probably most Westerners saw her first in the dubbed anime long predating Danbooru and well-established fansub culture, but it's consistent with us using Japanese names for anime characters in general.

iridescent_slime said:

Why do we use the unqualified toad, anyway? Shouldn't it be toad_(mario)? This seems like an open invitation for mistagging.

Probably just because it's an old and established tag. I'd be in favor of bulk editing it to the qualified version and opening up toad for the animal. Note that the current wiki directs people to flag the animal toad as frog for whatever reason.

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Provence

Shinjidude said:

She's sort of an edge/exception case, as probably most Westerners saw her first in the dubbed anime long predating Danbooru and well-established fansub culture, but it's consistent with us using Japanese names for anime characters in general.

EDIT: Shinjidude: My bad I accidentally edited something instead of replying again. Lacrimosa was mentioning about the fact that Kasumi was from the game first and not the anime, and that the games should be more popular.

Updated by Shinjidude

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Shinjidude

Lacrimosa said

...

In Pokémon's case, most of the named characters aren't from the games though, but from the anime. Gym leaders like Kasumi/Misty are again an exception there. It makes her consistent with Satoshi/Ash though, who isn't in the games.

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Provence

Shinjidude said:

In Pokémon's case, most of the named characters aren't from the games though, but from the anime Gym leaders like Kasumi/Misty are again an exeption there. It makes her consistant with Satoshi/Ash though, who isn't in the games.

To be fair, Satoshi may be an exception because he started as an anime character. But even his name is consistently referred to as "ash_ketchum" as far as I am aware.
All other characters do have at least one game appearance. It looks very janky that the Pokémon themselves have the English term, though. There is just this inconsistency in this franchise that is really jarring to me. I mean, we could respect the original japanese names but then this would go against the guidelines set up in that thread from 10 years ago because Pokémon is such a big franchise, even in the west and most people would expect to see Misty instead of Kasumi, especially when the Pokémon are named in English.

But back to Mario (or Toad): -1
And for the toad issue: Just use the frog tag. Most people won't probably know the difference, anyway. Even more so when looking at anime pictures.

Also why did you edit my post?
wtf

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Shinjidude

Lacrimosa said:

To be fair, Satoshi may be an exception because he started as an anime character. But even his name is consistently referred to as "ash_ketchum" as far as I am aware.
All other characters do have at least one game appearance. It looks very janky that the Pokémon themselves have the English term, though. There is just this inconsistency in this franchise that is really jarring to me. I mean, we could respect the original japanese names but then this would go against the guidelines set up in that thread from 10 years ago because Pokémon is such a big franchise, even in the west and most people would expect to see Misty instead of Kasumi, especially when the Pokémon are named in English.

But back to Mario (or Toad): -1
And for the toad issue: Just use the frog tag. Most people won't probably know the difference, anyway. Even more so when looking at anime pictures.

Also why did you edit my post?
wtf

I'm mostly trying to explain the current state of things rather than iron out all the wrinkles. Technically by the original formal policy we should be making everything Japanese including the Pokémon names, but that's ridiculous from a westerner's usability perspective. That's when the tweak in policy was made for games. The anime character names are at least consistent with other anime series on Danbooru.

My apologies for the edit. For some reason, I have gotten more used to Reddit's system where "reply" is on the specific comment and not at the bottom of the page, and I frequently use the "edit" on my own posts, so I apparently didn't notice I wasn't replying. This is the second time in the last couple of months I've hit the wrong link.

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Danielx21

Shinjidude said:

To quote Evazion from 10 years ago when naming policy was being hashed out:

This ended up being more or less the de facto policy.

We default to the Japanese names in most cases because they are the most consistent, and the first and best known to people who watch subs or fansubs of new shows, which are typically the first means by which people at large experience copyrights today. For games though, especially old games, the majority of Danbooru's users will have experienced them first via a localized version of the game (if there is one), most often in English. As a result things like Mario stay with their English localization. For Pokénon, the character names from the anime series usually keep their Japanese names, as anime fans would often encounter the Japanese names first, but the names of the hundreds of Pokémon themselves keep their localized names from the games. It's not 100% consistent, but it tends to make things easier for people here in general when it comes to tagging and searching.

Shinjidude, thanks for that and other comments above where you explained the naming system.

Lacrimosa said:

To be fair, Satoshi may be an exception because he started as an anime character. But even his name is consistently referred to as "ash_ketchum" as far as I am aware.
All other characters do have at least one game appearance. It looks very janky that the Pokémon themselves have the English term, though. There is just this inconsistency in this franchise that is really jarring to me. I mean, we could respect the original japanese names but then this would go against the guidelines set up in that thread from 10 years ago because Pokémon is such a big franchise, even in the west and most people would expect to see Misty instead of Kasumi, especially when the Pokémon are named in English.

Maybe it would be a good idea to move all Pokémon human characters to English names instead of Japanese?

Bulbapedia and other Pokémon websites do it. Referring to Pokémon characters by the English name seems to be the normal thing to do when speaking/writing in English.

Plus there's the fact that we use English names for the Pokémon creatures anyway.

We also use English names for Pokémon trainer classes:

Updated

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Shinjidude

Danielx21 said:

Maybe it would be a good idea to move all Pokémon human characters to English names instead of Japanese?

Bulbapedia and other Pokémon websites do it. Referring to Pokémon characters by the English name seems to be the normal thing to do when speaking/writing in English.

I'd ague against this mostly out of consistency with the rest of the site, and the fact if we did open up more exceptions it becomes a can of worms as to when the normal policy applies and when it doesn't. It'a a little fuzzy with the games exception already (especially for the case of Pokémon). There's little reason to intentionally make things fuzzier.

Japanese copyrights always have a Japanese-origin name, they don't always have an English name, especially not at the beginning when the character might first get tagged, and sometimes they'll get inconsistent or diverging English localizations.

Would we want to start tagging Tsukino Usagi as Serena (Sailor Moon) because of the English dub or Ishida Yamato as Matt (Digimon)? The "whenever reasonable, use the original Japanese for anime and manga" rule is simpler and easier to follow and enforce in the end.

As for other websites, we've rarely used external sites to set precedent on this one (at least in my experience).

Plus there's the fact that we use English names for the Pokémon creatures anyway.

We also use English names for Pokémon trainer classes:

For the first case, that was done as an exception due to the ridiculousness of needing to memorize hundreds of second names and the fact that these hundreds of "characters" often don't feature prominently in the anime at all. The potentially dozen character names or so for a typical anime are much easier to learn, especially if one's first experience with a series is a sub or fansub.

For the second, we almost never use general Japanese words when English ones would do for general nouns and adjectives. We use English names for shirt and apple too, so I don't think the classes provide much argument in any case.

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user 429955

I think Pokemon is a difficult example to work with because it's mainly split between the original game series (which would make sense to use the familiar English localized names for gym leaders and trainer classes, like the Mario series), and the anime series (which would use the original Japanese names as suggested in the guidelines for most anime).

I think it's better to use the Japanese names for Pokemon's human characters instead of changing all of the names to English. The localization of official character names to English has always been inconsistent. The anime airs in Japanese first, what if an episode never gets localized? Is this character tag going to be in Japanese next to names like Ash Ketchum and Misty? Most people that currently watch the Pokemon anime, especially the new series Pokemon SM (anime), know the characters by their original names from the subs and don't wait for the episode to be translated and broadcasted. These names would need to be tagged in Japanese and then later changed to a different name after being officially translated.

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