Danbooru

EN->JP names policy

Posted under General

This is mostly a rant by an unranked authority-less member, so you’re free to tell me to shut the hell up. Incidentally, if things were done the way I would like them to in an ideal world, this would probably increase Albert’s workload some serious bit.

I think full standardization one way or another can prove less than ideal, as is seen from the whole pokemon alias mess. I don’t really think an absolute policy is really a good idea if the goal is to facilitate understanding rather than information storage.

While making a definite reading of what is mainstream on the internet is far beyond ridiculous, I’d just like to point a few cases where sometimes either the original Japanese or the English could turn out to be preferable:

Situation 1: Detective Conan/Case Closed

Released in a lot of regions as Case Closed, that name and whatever was done with the characters have some considerable fame. On the other hand, if you know at least a bit of the series, looked it up on the net or, most remarkably, watch the subs and read the scanlated version (Which is probably the case with anyone still paying attention to it), all of which are very likely if you use Danbooru, you should immediately recognize “Detective Conan”, “Shinichi Kudo” and “Conan Edogawa”. These names are well known outside of Japan to anyone interested in the series and aren’t even fully known to the all the western audience. I’ve read every single chapter of the manga and I have no idea what the characters are called in the dub. I realize I’m an individual case, but I don’t really think I’m a rare one.

Situation 2: Pokemon’s Anime protagonist.

While the Pokemon translators have not exactly been remarkable, everyone recognizes Ash, Misty, Brock, Prof. Oak, etc. However, though I may be over-generalizing, anyone present in this site most likely does have a certain degree of useless general knowledge pertaining to anime. In fact some may even watch the anime’s subbed chapters while clinging to some vague desperate hope that something interesting may actually happen once every couple seasons. So yeah, I think we can all tell what Satoshi or Kasumi mean. They may not hold the absolute majority in usage, but they are readily recognizable names.

Situation 3: Random FF names.

Now for the other side of the coin: Lingering partially justified dislike for Ted Woosley aside, can everyone here really recognize Mash and Cayenne without looking them up? These names aren’t like the FFT cases that were fixed in translation, the updated, much brushed-up version kept them as such. For that matter, do you people recognize Balflear? These are no longer crackpot 4kids style translations, they are fairly well done with a lot of work put into them for localization, hence why the western names are practically universally recognized among fans. Unlike many of 4kids/Saban translations of certain anime (Say, Shaman King), you don’t really see people go and look up the Japanese versions for better understanding or a less crippled script. There’s really no actual incentive for anyone to know those names other than simply to know how they were called in the Japanese versions. Which leads me to the following case:

Situation 3.1: Etrian Odyssey/Sekaiju no Meikyuu (or however the hell many “U’s” this thing has).

I believe I read in a previous post that Albert’s rationale for going with the JP version was that they were more commonly used. Now, why would that be? A Situation 1 case is right out for obvious reasons. A Situation 2 case is possible, but kinda odd. The solution would be a snowball effect: Someone either started posting images before the localization was made, logically using the original names, or simply started posting the images with the original names for arbitrary reasons. Later, more people posting these images saw that there were existing tags for those characters and used them over the English versions without actually trying to submit the alias. I think many will remember that the Etrian_Odyssey alias wasn’t approved until sometime near the second’s game release, which suggests quite a lot of time available for a hectic organization to exist.

In any case, at the time Albert looked up the situation, the Japanese names were predominant. I don’t have solid proof, but I’m willing to bet money on this.

Now, isn’t this kind of backwards? There’s nothing glaringly bad about the localization even if there are some aesthetic changes. Unless you played the game in Japanese, nobody really has any real reason for knowing the original class names at all.

Stretch this issue to the extreme and you have the whole pokemon monster names alias issue.

I guess I should get to the point already: While in some case the JP>EN rationale has basis, a complete iron-set policy seems a bit wasteful. Many of these cases honestly seem to me are only there to “be more Japanese” rather than to make the organization neater and even seem counterproductive to the goal of making everything clearly understandable. Why do you people know that the original for Etrian’s Ronin was Bushido and Landsknecht’s was Swordsman? I mean, c'mon, "Akumajo Dracula"? Did the person who submitted that use to watch "GoLion" and "Mach GoGoGo" as a kid?

This would be the part where I’d suggest a more efficient method for naming… except I don’t have one. I have my own criteria of course, but that’s a personal one. It’s up to Albert to decide, and obviously making a one-way standardization makes everything easier when each case doesn’t have to be singularly considered. This is just something I thought I’d point out to see if it’s worthy of consideration.

Updated by albert

*hangs head* I'm responsible for the Pokemon aliases. However, some have been retained between territories, while others are only slightly different (still, copyrights/trademarks/whatever stand). For some, such as Beedrill/Spear, having the Japanese name up might explain whatever's going on in their pictures (in Beedrill's case, that its "moemon" is using spears, which make sense graphically, but have an extra poignancy with the name correlation).

As for the FF names, I'm submitted many of the differences, most recently Balflear (kinda sounds dumb, but like Butz, it grows on ya). Since Square [Enix] seems to be on top of their home-country name uses, even so far as that a Japanesey character (Yuffie) isn't spelled as one'd expect (Yufi, or similar). These names have a solid enough consistency that people should be able to catch on. Besides, Mash and Cayenne woudn't be findable by single names _anyway_, so a seacher would presumably recognise the rest of the name (which FFVI shows in its credits, IIRC), and thus figure out who it is. If not, they could just click on it in a bout of WTF.

I was a proponent in reinstating Akumajo Dracula. However, a few of the games' Japanese titles use "Castlevania", and "castlevania" aliases (for a bit it was an implication; when it changed, I was surprised). That "Dracula" is in the name should tip a fan off about what's going on. Now, something that's still iffy is the standing alias for Harmony of Dissonance. According to the romanization Danbooru (is that "buu" or "boh"?) uses, it should read "castlevania_byakuya_no_concerto", but it stands as "castlevania_concerto_of_midnight_sun". This is based on the official soundtrack's cover, which also puts the first GBA game as a "Castlevania", when it was fully "akumajo_dracula_circle_of_the_moon" (possibly tildes; this is the standing alias). Gallery of Labyrinth/Portait of ruin also works under the "they used this on official materials" (for GoL/PoR, the site) rationalization, despite the Japanese name being, well, in Japanese. There's so much convulsion within Castlevania that I'm boggle-eyed at what to do aboot it.

An interesting note: some of Xenosaga's characters were presumed to follow Japanese naming structure, where the family name precedes, but on looking at the site(s), both the English/Romaji _and_ the Japanese script read in Western format (at least as far as I could tell, comparing two characters of the same familay and matching up "letters" between those names and another). Once this was presented, the names are "accuratized".

I'mma stop typing for now, since I don't know where I would go from here but to babble about somthing.

I couldn't give a crap about Satoshi vs Ash, Kasumi vs Misty, but all 400 Pokemon names? I thought remembering the damn English names was tough enough. Who the hell knows the Japanese ones? I agree with A Lot Of Text. Some of these just seems kind of pointless to change it back all the time.

I think the best policy would be to always go with whatever name is the most well known in the West. To some extent, it's what we've been doing, at least up until the recent Pokemon and Castlevania aliases.

It doesn't matter if you recognize that Mash is Sabin and Cayenne is Cyan, or even that Balflear is Balthier, most people still use the English names because that's simply what those characters are known as by Western fans.

The current policy is really counterproductive in some cases. As a test, a minute ago I tried searching for posts of Sabin. sabin gave me no results. Most people who aren't hardcore FF6 fans would have given up right there. Next I tried sabin figaro. No results. Next, mash. That gave me something that wasn't Sabin. Next, mash_figaro. Again, no results. Finally, I had to give up and browse final fantasy vi to find what I was looking for.

The correct answer, it turns out, was mash rene figaro. It is completely ridiculous to expect an average person to know both a character's fucking middle name and their name in Japanese to find what they're looking for.

tl;dr: Current policy is retarded, go with whatever name is most widely used.

I imagine it's not always so easy to determine which name is "most well known in the West", though. As someone who likes all things to be consistent, I would like to see the JP names instead of the EN ones even for things like Pokemon, but at the same time I can certainly appreciate the reasons for not doing so in this case.

Soljashy said:
I imagine it's not always so easy to determine which name is "most well known in the West", though.

In cases where both the Japanese and English names are widely used it shouldn't make a big difference which is chosen, since presumably most fans would be familiar with both. I can't think of any actual cases like that myself, but maybe I'm not thinking hard enough.

Basically I think we should go with English names unless the Japanese name is more widely used for whatever reason. Stubbornly sticking with Japanese for absolutely everything is just plain weeaboo-ism.

evazion said:
Stubbornly sticking with Japanese for absolutely everything is just plain weeaboo-ism.

It's more about sticking with the original name, though, which just happens to be Japanese most of the time (for obvious reasons).

I see your point, and I agree that we should be consistent as long as we're staying with EN->JP. I just think it'd be more useful if tag names matched the names most fans usually use and expect to see, and not obscure names that only hardcore fans might know.

evazion said:
The correct answer, it turns out, was mash rene figaro. It is completely ridiculous to expect an average person to know both a character's fucking middle name and their name in Japanese to find what they're looking for.

In Mashabin's case, FF fansites give the characters' full names in their profile pages, and many would list their names in other territories (heck, the Golden Sun characters Wikipedia page lists Japanese, English, French, and something else, prolly German (at least when I last delved)), and as I IIRC'd, the FFVI characters' full names are given during the credits. I dunno if middle names are given, but FFVI fans would either be able to check on their liked characters (Wikis) or would have run across those names in the credit roll. It's those names "sabin_rene_figaro") that are aliased.

I think we should stick with the original name in all cases. Not so much cause it's better or more recognizable (those are really subjective qualifications, and will invariably lead to arguments such as these), but because it's the only consistent method--after all, sometimes there only is an original name.

Aliases have the wonderful effect that when you type in the one name, you effectively also typed in the other name, so it's not like if you type Misty that you don't get the result you expect.

surasshu said:
Aliases have the wonderful effect that when you type in the one name, you effectively also typed in the other name, so it's not like if you type Misty that you don't get the result you expect.

The only problem is that, without checking the Alias list(s), you can't tell what else you have available. I don't know how "did you mean"s or "see also"s work with aliases, but simply mistyping can lead to problems in figuring out if there's anything there (though this is mostly only a problem for obscure stuff and anything labelled with loli or shota). Then there's the dinstinction factor (as some of the Pokemon names need, since they have very generic instances), making it so that you can't just search for, say, sora and expect the sora you're looking for. This is handled by the "also"s and/or "ambiguous"es, but again my worry of alias override in those areas comes up. I'unno, this is all a bit tricky.

T5J8F8 said:
Danbooru (is that "buu" or "boh"?)

bō (long o, no u)

evazion said:
I think the best policy would be to always go with whatever name is the most well known in the West.

Please define "west". Now please define what happens when there are multiple translations/versions around.

tl;dr: Current policy is retarded, go with whatever name is most widely used.

Your face is-- anyway, your reasoning is what's retarded here, you assume the existence of a singular "West" with unambiguous, singular localised versions. We have enough issues with stupidly inconsistent names within Japanese originals alone (especially when they shoot at having western-style names for characters), introducing more confusion in that is seriously uncalled for.

Whilst there will always be special cases like Castlevania (ie. localised name so crushingly more popular that it gets acknowledged by the JP side), Pokemon (let's not be stupid with 400 aliases, it's a merchandise-driven kiddo show anyway) or Bison/Vega/Balrog in SF (ugh...), questioning the entire, very sensible and simple, policy on this basis is dumbstupidretarded.

This is how aliases work (and forgive me for not knowing how to link to a search command within danbooru's system, I'm not going to go hunting for obscure information in the help area trying to guess where I might find it when I have other things I have to do).

http://danbooru.donmai.us/post?tags=folklore

You type in "folklore". The search comes back "folklore" but actually retrieves every incidence of "folkssoul". If you give an entry the tag "folklore", it automatically converts to "folkssoul". In effect, unless the person misspells either name traditionally given to the game, they WILL find the art for it and they WILL tag it properly no matter which word they enter.

葉月 said:
bō (long o, no u)

Thanks, though it might take me some time to stop saying "daanbuuruu" (FTR, I don't like the double-consonant system, and I support "no" being tacked onto the previous word, though that might muddle it with names that end in "no").

ANYWAY, In getting that first set of Pokemanz aliases in thar, I found instances where people had tagged images with the Japanese names already. We need to either-way on the more unique names at the least (ones that definitely wouldn't be tagged otherwise, unlike "coil" and "freezer" and even "thunder"), I say*.

*not expected to carry weight... *sad*

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