Why is western art sometimes allowed and sometimes it is a flag reason?

Long title and it might be better discused in topic #11877.
But in my eyes, this is a pretty big thing and I also got contacted by another janitor why I approved post #2430440 and there is a small discussion going on in post #2439501. Both uploaded by @Kikimaru (I want his opinion here, too, since he uploads a lot of this art. Now one post is pending approval, but you get the idea. It still fits with the title of this topic.

Now why is there such an argument going on?
The reason the user who messaged me is this site: The "howto:upload":page"wiki #10933.
And I quote from there:

Art Style
Danbooru is an Anime Art Gallery first, and a high-quality gallery second. Only anime-style art will be accepted. Art which are done in other styles are highly likely to be rejected.

Generally rejected:
Western style illustrations (commonly known outside Danbooru as 'cartoons' or 'comics').

Apparantly, this is to be understood in a way that western styled artworks should not be accepted. I don't read it that way, but it is misleading. The reason I think is this: We have three parts of the "Art Style" section:
1. Generally accepted
2. Conditionally accepted
3. Generally accepted
So the thing is: Why drop western style in the generally rejected section, when there is a conditionally accepted section? From this structure, I can see why people think that western styled artworks should be rejected. Quality shouldn't matter.
So my vote is for western art: Put that part into the "Conditionally accepted" section. That's how it is treated here anyway (see post #2260690). Western artworks should then met a higher quality standard.
Also to reinforce this switch is this: The ToS doesn't mention that western styled art is prohibited.
It only mentions:

You may not upload any of the following:
Non-anime: Photographs of American porn actresses, for example, are prohibited. Photographs of cosplayers, figures, or prominent figures in the industry are acceptable.

Here's what I think. If the art in question doesn't have any anime or animesque origins to it or the art style does not have anything animesque to it. It doesn't belong here. For example, I think Alex Ross is certainly a good artist but I wouldn't upload his works here at all unless he draws some fanart of some Japanese copyright. Same goes for post #2430440.

There have been a few exceptions to the no western-style artwork... off the top of my head, pool:In_memory_of and pool:Current_events contain a few examples. There are probably others, but the main point is that they should be the exception, rather than the rule...

tapnek said:

Here's what I think. If the art in question doesn't have any anime or animesque origins to it or the art style does not have anything animesque to it. It doesn't belong here. For example, I think Alex Ross is certainly a good artist but I wouldn't upload his works here at all unless he draws some fanart of some Japanese copyright. Same goes for post #2430440.

This sounds random.
Doesn't look animesque doesn't really fit with what this page expresses: High-quality.
Also what I do also mean with randon: Look at the Star Wars copyright: post #2022369. This has nothing to do with Anime. So now I'm going to compare this to a similar image, but anime related:
post #2370540
So what is the difference between those two pictures? The head is covered with a helmet but one of them is from Star Wars, the other is Evangelion. Why prohibit Star Wars, while allow Evangelion, although both feature more or less the same motiv?
Also to @NWF_Renim or @buehbueh
I see that you are approving some of Kronnan Dung's images which feature planes or mechas without specific copyright. Sometimes Macross, but it's about posts like post #1430723 or post #2315901 (Covered a big time section from 3 years to 4 month ago). So this doesn't look like one random approval.

Provence said:

Why prohibit Star Wars, while allow Evangelion, although both feature more or less the same motiv?

One is an anime/Japanese copyright, the other isn't.

BrokenEagle98 said:

There have been a few exceptions to the no western-style artwork... off the top of my head, pool:In_memory_of and pool:Current_events contain a few examples. There are probably others, but the main point is that they should be the exception, rather than the rule...

Well, well.
There seem NO rule about them at all. Or when they are approved by users like @Saladofstones (<-moderator) with the Bruce Lee image I posted above, do they break these "guidelines"? It doesn't fit with "generally rejected" when there is a "conditionally accepted" section (where I'd put them when they met quality standards). That is not making a rule to allow every post, but it is a filter. Much like that furry artworks should met higher quality standards.

tapnek said:

One is an anime/Japanese copyright, the other isn't.

Like I said: Random.
You can now flag all western styled art. Eleven years danbooru exists. Starting with the star_wars and doom_(game) franchise^^. This doesn't fit how they seem to be treated here.

Oh man, this is hard to explain what is considered on-topic and what isn't here but I'll tell you what I saw before. There used to be a bunch of art by an artist named Budd Root here. They were here for years until someone flagged them all for "being outside of the purview of this site" and they were deleted. It was pretty well drawn art, mind you.

@Provence & thread

My general feeling is that, as Danbooru & the internet have evolved, there has been a converging of fandoms, ideas & memes between East & West fans.

And it is utterly, myopically WRONG to say that there is only "one true anime style".
The art of the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s all have different styles from the art of today; and they ALL have (to some degree) Western influence. It works the other way around, of course; modern cartoons are highly influenced by anime "style" and production techniques.

And for "Western"-theme art: Japanese artists can look beyond their own borders for media they like, so why should we restrict art here?

Very specific, highly-rated / favourited posts that I've found over the years:
post #1769349
post #1698507
post #2079313
post #1187404

You're telling me that these should be deleted because they don't look like in the same style as post #903347, post #778516, or post #280703?
Do these posts, the 3 most favourited on Danbooru, even HAVE Japanese art/theme?

====
And if you don't think that DOOM poster is quality, I think you forgot that manly is still a tag.

post #1769349
post #1698507
post #2079313
post #1187404

I believe these belong here. The Doom poster doesn't.

Another thing:
Look at a property like Overwatch.

The growth of posts, here & on Pixiv, is ~3000 in under 2 years, and yet it's a completely Western property.
Should every single post be deleted?

Man, we really need an admin here to help clear things up. It's too hard for me to explain without being labeled as "random" by Provence.

tapnek said:

Man, we really need an admin here to help clear things up. It's too hard for me to explain without being labeled as "random" by Provence.

Danbooru IS random.

It's in the name.

Danbooru = cardboard box

(aside: I feel like I should be invoking seniority here)

You said that Star Wars doesn't belong here. That is ok, but I gave you a comparison. A similar image showing nearly the same motiv. Yes, Asuka has a bit more body in the picture, but it comes down to the mask. The face is hidden and this makes those two image nearly look identical. But one of them should n't be allowed because of being a western copyright while the other not seems a bit superficial.
So we need to know what really is going on here. The Bruce Lee picture doesn't feature any anime style at all, it's western at its finest. Still here, though, approved by one moderator.
And about those images you showed me: Not One Of Us approved them. That is a huge handicap for a flagged post, because Not One Of Us is the last person to approve a post.
And those images looks more like they are based off a real life model. Like the Mona Lisa which I wouldn't call western-cartoon style anymore. So that is the border in my eyes to these images:
1. Style based of the real world (Mona Lisa and stuff)
2. Western-Cartoon
3. Anime
While I can accept that the first group shouldn't be allowed here, western-cartoonidh images should be conditionally accepted, like they always have been here on Danbooru. And that includes this Doom wallpaper (I wasn't the only one who approved this image).

And about that "Random" thing: This shouldn't be an insult, but we are talking about rules or guidelines. And to answer with a squishy response is a problem in my eyes^^.

I mean, heck, this section here is three separate contradictions.

• "Danbooru is an Anime Art Gallery first, and a high-quality gallery second. Only anime-style art will be accepted. Art which are done in other styles are highly likely to be rejected."
• "Danbooru is an Anime Art Gallery first, and a high-quality gallery second." Saying it is primarily here to accept anime art, but allows others secondarily if they are of high quality.
• "Only anime-style art will be accepted." Saying only anime art is allowed here, nothing else.
• "Art which are done in other styles are highly likely to be rejected." Saying a large majority of art that isn't anime will be rejected, but some others will be let through.

The method I've personally generally (if not always) used to reconcile at least 2/3 of this statement is that art lacking both the "anime style" and a connection to Japanese culture should be held to a much higher standard. I accept that something like this will be approved here because it's in the anime style and related to Japanese culture. Take that away and it's a simple, almost boring portrait in every way; not many details, simple shading, no background to speak of, etc. On the other hand, a good portion of Stanley Lau's work is neither related to an anime style or Japanese culture at all, but the incredible detail, anatomy, shading, and "striking-ness" of the images makes me feel they fit into a gallery of quality art as the second half of that first sentence of the above statement claims Danbooru to be.

Provence said:

And about that "Random" thing: This shouldn't be an insult, but we are talking about rules or guidelines. And to answer with a squishy response is a problem in my eyes^^.

Remember that we have to reconcile the tastes of the entire approval team. There can't really be hardline rules to dictate exactly what can and can't be kept without negating the usefulness of having more than one approver, and even then the rules would just be that person's tastes. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement in how the situation is laid out in words on wikis and the ToS and whatever else, but don't expect a bulleted list of conditions that you can apply completely to every approved image on the site.

I'll admit I'm biased, not against anime art, but in favor of a more generalist approval style. Provence has commented that I choose a large number of western properties, non-anime art and non-japanese artists, in some cases all three. As much as I love anime, I've always firmly believed there is room here for great non-anime art, either cartoon, photorealistic, or in other modern and classical modes, as long as it fits in.

It's about whether it fits, and this has more to do with understanding Japanese approaches to design beyond just things like the moe style, specific features like eye's or hair. Yoshitaka Amano's stuff sticks out like a sore thumb, being mostly traditional media. Tsutomu Nihei's works have the same thing going on as well. They look nothing like Hiromu Arakawa's FMA/Silver Spoon style. Compare that again to Hirohiko Araki's use of western drawing features like fully finished noses, which results in a look completely alien when compared to those other artists. But all of them still fit, because they can be demonstrated to represent the widest corners of anime art, versus thousands of artists who draw Miku the same way over and over. They too have a place, but that's where we start to see the problem.

Sometimes the best images aren't the Japanese artists, but Americans, Europeans and Chinese or Korean ones. Ilya Kuvshinov does many things that are beyond the anime and Japan purview of this website. By that logic, some of his work would be forbidden if reading a strict interpretation of the ToS. Generic anime art from relevant sources aside, as important as anime art is to Danbooru, generalist uploading is not in itself a problem if the artwork fits well. The Doom Poster fits perfectly amongst all the mixed anime/nonanime art in the epic tag for instance. On the subject of Stanley Lau, his realistic work fits perfectly amongst the catalog, even when drawing western copyrights in non-anime styles.

On a tangent, Star Wars is very Japanese influenced, and calling it irrelevant is missing much of it's influences and influence. It's essentially Akira Kurosawa bottled up and mixed with Flash Gordon/Buck Rogers. In turn it set the standard for works like Gundam and space opera in Japan(Tomino directly references it). Consider how many Japanese artists LOVE H.R. Giger, and have rolled his work into their ecosystem. Stylistically, trying to judge what is on topic by style is even worse than judging by source or copyright. This leaves apparent quality the most critical in checking at face value what the worth of a rendered artwork is.

In turn, I'd also say that the Budd Root works were not all that great, and I'd never upload nor approve them whether they were by a Japanese artist or not. They're faded versions of badly scanned traditional media, and pretty generic fantasy art like the sorts you see on a lot of cheap paperbacks from the 80's and 90's. On the other hand, the Doom poster is well composed, demonstrating a fine understanding of lighting, shadow, anatomy and color, not built on stereotypes of beauty that most fantasy art east or west tend to fall into. By this point of logic, it is essentially a real work of art, with the unfortunate mark of being completely irrelevant based on a literalist reading of the ToS.

So in summary, the ToS isn't the only thing to go by, its if the art fits into the vibe of the site that matters to me. There's dozens of cheesy Call of Duty posts that are deleted that aren't badly drawn, but they stick out like a sore thumb, whereas the Doom Poster works well.

I agree with most of what you're saying but I dunno about some of it. I guess I'll stick with it since at least those copyrights give a breath of fresh air after swimming through what's usually uploaded here.

Kikimaru said:

Another thing:
Look at a property like Overwatch.

The growth of posts, here & on Pixiv, is ~3000 in under 2 years, and yet it's a completely Western property.
Should every single post be deleted?

Overwatch was the very first thing I thought of when I saw the thread title, nto star wars

Just to illustrate, I searched for Soldier 76 and hit random a few times, and came up with stuff like this:

http://safebooru.donmai.us/posts/2390133
http://safebooru.donmai.us/posts/2410439
http://safebooru.donmai.us/posts/2387210

Maybe we should use whether or not an art piece is done in the style of anime as one of the criteria, but the real issue is if and whether a line should be drawn as to the standards required.

For the record, I find Overwatch to be the Westernized version of anime styled characters - Tracer if s usually drawn
With eyes and proportions closer to early 2000s anime art than American comic book styles... or for that matter, even Disney, whose early animated films helped inspire the early anime style which has influenced even recent designs.

Yeah, Overwatch has a more Disney-like art style than even Team Fortress 2.