Traditional Elf

Posted under Tags

BUR #58931 is pending approval.

convert pool:18337 -> traditional_elf

Maybe controversial, idk. Tag set to mirror traditional nun but open to name suggestions.

The intention of the pool seems to be to have a way to find elves that scream that traditional elf vibe with typical hair colours, outfits, settings and lifestyles. I think there's probably some merit to this idea personally given the state of the elf tag due to a lot of canon tagging. Hopefully this won't experience tag enshittification.

i feel this will lead to the creation of a traditional dwarf, traditional goblin, traditional orc, traditional succubus, etc.

basically the problem is that people are canon tagging the character race. those races are based on stereotypes from fantasy fiction. but ever since the year 2010 anime started being "ironic" and "subverting" "tropes". now every demon is an angel, angels are NEETs, goblins have human rights, orcs are nerds, slimes are powerful, etc.

so now we need to start creating tags for the races behaving the way the should. actually ignore that, it sounds racist.

so now we need to start creating tags for the races behaving like their stereotypes.

i think stereotypical elf would be a more correct tag name but we already have traditional nun, etc. so i'm not sure.

I didn't like the elf tag itself back in topic #19955. The argument for keeping it was that pointy ears was too flooded with random other shit (say, demons or even birds) that elf still served some purpose. But now elf is similarly so flooded with random bullshit that we need an "elf for real this time" tag?

I'd only support if we're going to get rid of the other elf tag.

The problem with the whole traditional elf idea is that it is pretty hard to define. Let's say we go back to the source of modern elves, Tolkien; sure, you find the stereotypical blondish, forest-dwelling, bow-using elves there, but they are a pretty small and, when talking about the setting as a whole, fairly irrelevant group, with the arguably most plot-important group of elves being distinguished by things like their preference for using swords, usually having black or dark brown hair, living in cities built either aboveground or underground, being skilled in arts like mining and crafting, creating extremely valuable bling, getting killed for said bling, murdering other elves because they dared to touch their bling, etc., aka stuff that doesn't really fit the stereotypical mental image of the traditional elf as a forest-dwelling blonde hippie with a bow.

To use another example, D&D. I don't really know how bad the situation is when it comes to elves these days, but back in the day there was an elf subrace for basically every single potential environment: city elves, forest elves, underground elves, winged elves, evil underground elves, evil underground elves but actually good, underwater elves, arctic elves, etc. If you start to include third-party stuff, it gets even worse. I am looking at you, Bastards and Bloodlines, and your elf × eagle, elf × unicorn, and elf × fucking sapient tree crossbreeds.

Mexiguy said in forum #439246:

A mayor problem with the elf tag is the sheer amount of canon tagging that there is going in there, I got tired of getting into edit wars with people adding elf / dark elf on random Yukihana Lamy and Shiranui Flare posts just because they are canonically elves

Looking at some of these, I'm a little confused. You were not just reverting elf, which does have difficulty with canon, but in some cases, even pointy ears too, and I don't know how to reconcile that.

Alright I've got 1k posts here in favgroup:55463, I'm willing to add more if people generally agree with the content.

The two big things I was looking for were pointy ears and fantasy/medieval attire. While elves are predominantly blonde I have no issues with other colors like grey or green as long as the intention is clearly the fantasy race. (post #1152407 post #30926)

Even if we don't kill the main elf-tag this could be used to populate the theoretical traditional_elf subtag. Would love to hear more thoughts.

evvvk said in forum #439205:

The problem with the whole traditional elf idea is that it is pretty hard to define....

I don't really know how bad the situation is when it comes to elves these days, but back in the day there was an elf subrace for basically every single potential environment: city elves, forest elves, underground elves, winged elves, evil underground elves, evil underground elves but actually good, underwater elves, arctic elves, etc. If you start to include third-party stuff, it gets even worse. I am looking at you, Bastards and Bloodlines, and your elf × eagle, elf × unicorn, and elf × fucking sapient tree crossbreeds.

If we go by the wiki for elf it's clearly written with a Tolkien-esque view in mind, which makes sense since his interpretation is the root of their depictions in most JRPGs and modern fantasy series. We have a tag for drow, which implies elf, but I'm not sure what separates the others.

The point of the race tags should be that of the broad stereotype, if the Elf x Unicorn no longer looks like an elf then it doesn't matter that it is canonically considered one.

post #2762685, post #2654211, post #7664584, post #10036306

These are just a few that are in elf only because the creator says that's what they are, would you really assume them to be such if you hadn't been told?

The classic Tolkien-esque depiction of elves generally gets called a "high elf" (tall, blonde, beautiful, light skin, graceful, high fantasy setting, etc). That's clearly the kind of elf the wiki is describing. Another name option if people are balking at "traditional elf".

I think it's fine to have a tag for stereotypical elves. The elf tag is extremely broad due to the popularity of the race in fantasy, so it's not like you can search for them in any other way.

I wouldn't deprecate elf yet, but having traditional elf would help us understand if elf is covering other cases that are actually elves but can't fit under traditional elf. For example, how do we deal with dark elf, the D&D traditional drow kind?

PersonalFowl said in forum #439428:

The classic Tolkien-esque depiction of elves generally gets called a "high elf" (tall, blonde, beautiful, light skin, graceful, high fantasy setting, etc). That's clearly the kind of elf the wiki is describing. Another name option if people are balking at "traditional elf".

"High helf" has the same issue: plenty of copyrights have borrowed the term for completely different designs.

morrowind's high elves
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