Non-magical magical girl?

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araneus

According to the definition of the magical_girl wiki, it refers to a somewhat more traditional magical girl (like the mascot requirement). However, it seems that currently all characters in the transformation heroine (変身ヒロイン) category are labeled as magical_girl, including those that are more inclined towards tokusatsu/sci-fi and don't involve magic (e.g., those with "戦姫" in their name, or those wearing bodysuits and visors).

Should a new tag be created for this type of character? Or should the definition of magical_girl be adjusted?

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araneus

nonamethanks said in forum #437546:

Gonna need visual examples of what categories you're talking about.

Like, chara from kouyoku_senki_exs-tia or choukou_(alicesoft) or even Senki Zesshou Symphogear ?

Of course, some do involve supernatural powers and aren't entirely science fiction, but I think the design aesthetics of this exoskeleton/power armor kind thing should easily distinguish it from the typical magical girl concept.

Additionally, during my searching, I found some works that were clearly tributes to Ultra Series also labeled as "magical girl". I guess it's because of the autocomplete, currently "変身ヒロイン" is automatically interpreted as magical_girl.
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Damian0358

araneus said in forum #437557:

Additionally, during my searching, I found some works that were clearly tributes to Ultra Series also labeled as "magical girl". I guess it's because of the autocomplete, currently "変身ヒロイン" is automatically interpreted as magical_girl.

That's not the autocomplete, that's the Other Name system, where off-site tags are attached to on-site tags through wikis for ease of tagging (and you can use it for autocomplete, but that's a marginal feature of the system comparatively). Given the second linked post is from Twitter, I'd assume as much just a lack of awareness of the Ultra Series and assuming off-beat clothes like that to be magical girl-inspired instead of toku-inspired, but 変身ヒロイン being linked in magical girl's Other Name probably didn't help in the first linked post's case.

araneus said in forum #437557:

Like, chara from kouyoku_senki_exs-tia or choukou_(alicesoft) or even Senki Zesshou Symphogear ?

Of course, some do involve supernatural powers and aren't entirely science fiction, but I think the design aesthetics of this exoskeleton/power armor kind thing should easily distinguish it from the typical magical girl concept.

I think this is a consequence of how we handle mecha musume;

Damian0358 said in forum #411794:

Regardless of what evazion felt in forum #151152, I do think there is a difference between personification rigging and other stuff found in mecha musume that's a lot more generically sci-fi, because, despite what the wiki asserts, mecha musume isn't squarely the anthropomorphization of hardware (mecha) as cute girls, it's literally just girls in mecha-esque armor, which is why Pixiv itself overlaps it under mecha shoujo (which we have as an Other Name for mecha musume). The example image Pixiv gives for mecha musume is post #2087338, which isn't personifying shit. It's ironically fortunate that we haven't lumped shipgirls under mecha musume since then our tag wouldn't reflect how it's actually used in Japan. KanColle's wiki's old warning holds true.

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araneus

Anyway, I'm trying to clarify that the pixiv tag "変身ヒロイン" (henshin heroine) in Japanese context refers not only to magical girls, but also to a genres that is a mixture of tokusatsu, science fiction, maybe even mecha girls. Danbooru currently might lacks a tag that covers these aspects beyond magical girls.

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Damian0358

That tag has been present in magical girl's wiki for almost 12 years. Who knows how many posts had or have magical girl incorrectly applied to them?! Or at least, if we assume them to be incorrect, unless we go with a Western attitude on the matter ala Knowledge Seeker.

Besides magical girl and possibly mecha musume, where else could we find henshin heroine (henhero?) posts were we to make this tag? And more importantly, how would you distinuguish this henshin heroine tag from other tags to avoid incorrect tagging?

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araneus

Knowledge_Seeker said in forum #437562:

Last I checked, Senki Zesshou Symphogear is a magical girl show.

Of course we can discuss how broad or narrow the definition of magical girl should be (like the chart above). But at least in japanese context, "魔法少女" (Magical Girl) is used as a much narrower term. So I‘m afriad it's unlikely for you to find anyone categorize Senki Zesshou Symphogear as a "Magical Girl" work in the Japanese community.

For example: list of magical girl works on Japanese Wikipedia or magical girl entry on Pixiv Encyclopedia, neither of them includes Symphogear.

I'm not saying we have to follow the Japanese definition, I'm just trying to point out that there is a contradiction between our tag wiki definition/tag literal meaning and actual tagging practice.

The wiki currently uses a narrow definition (requiring traditional tropes like mascots or literal magic).

The actual tagging practice, however, follows the broad definition that include "変身ヒロイン"(henshin hiroine), which some users (like myself) might find somewhat inappropriate.

So I suggest we either keep it narrow, maintain the strict definition for magical_girl and create a new tag (e.g., transformation_heroine or something) to house these sci-fi/toku-inspired characters. Or we update the tag wiki to explicitly include non-magical, sci-fi, and mechanical transformation types to justify the current usage, keep it as the umbrella tag for all "Henshin Heroines". In that case, I still think it would be better to rename it to something that is more accurate in its literal meaning.

Personally, I lean towards distinguishing them. As I mentioned before, these two fetishes are visually differentiated, and their target audiences don't completely overlap. Differentiation helps users find what they want more quickly.

Damian0358 said in forum #437566:

That tag has been present in magical girl's wiki for almost 12 years. Who knows how many posts had or have magical girl incorrectly applied to them?!

How to deal with the large number of history tags is indeed a problem, but no matter the plan, doing it late is better than never...

Updated by araneus

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araneus

wavedash said in forum #437577:

Following genre labels could go against "tag what you see". Nanoha has "mahou shoujo" in the franchise title, but none of these are traditional magical girl outfits:

To be honest, Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha itself originated as a parody to the magical girl genre (it's a spin-off of the Triangle Heart bishoujo game series). However, this parody became unexpectedly popular, leading to its expansion into an ever-growing series. So, in a sense, it was never a traditional magical girl work from the beginning...

And yes, the "tag what you see" principle is also part of the reason I raised this question. I personally believe that "magical girl" as a tag should refer to a set of visual characteristics (such as the "typical" magical girl image with those kawaii style colorful skirts) rather than based on the genre of the work. And henshin heroines, who clearly have different visual characteristics, should have more specific tags.

Updated by araneus

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Damian0358

araneus said in forum #437573 and forum #437678:

So I suggest we either keep it narrow, maintain the strict definition for magical_girl and create a new tag (e.g., transformation_heroine or something) to house these sci-fi/toku-inspired characters. Or we update the tag wiki to explicitly include non-magical, sci-fi, and mechanical transformation types to justify the current usage, keep it as the umbrella tag for all "Henshin Heroines". In that case, I still think it would be better to rename it to something that is more accurate in its literal meaning.

Personally, I lean towards distinguishing them. As I mentioned before, these two fetishes are visually differentiated, and their target audiences don't completely overlap. Differentiation helps users find what they want more quickly.

I personally believe that "magical girl" as a tag should refer to a set of visual characteristics (such as the "typical" magical girl image with those kawaii style colorful skirts) rather than based on the genre of the work. And henshin heroines, who clearly have different visual characteristics, should have more specific tags.

I think that, ultimately, it might be difficult to suddenly narrow the focus of magical girl. Not just because of the tag's age, but because of how magical girls are viewed outside of Japan. Defining magical girls more narrowly in line with how they are viewed in Japan is something that should've been decided back in 2011, as more recent attempts have seen preference for the status quo, especially when magical girls themselves are caught in their own tagging drama on how to tag their magical girl forms relative to their civilian forms.

So I would imagine that people would strongly prefer a solution that isn't as radical, keeping magical girl as a broader umbrella tag for all "henshin heroines" unless that category overlaps with something else and uses a completely different aesthetic (like tokusatsu), and instead making subtags to magical girl which adhere to narrower sets of visual characteristics and have clearer names. The only way you'd be able to use magical girl the tag itself more narrowly is if you do most of the work yourself, and given you have 100k posts to deal with, I doubt you'd be able to do so.

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Knowledge Seeker

Yeah, I personally prefer the status quo, and generally speaking I really don't care if the Symphogear girls are not classified as magical girls in Japan, as I am not Japanese and am not using a site aimed at Japanese people, and also that's kinda a moot point now as Damian noted.

Which is why I suggest making a tag for these kind of mecha-inspired magical girl outfits that implies magical girl instead of trying to do some ridiculously large change-up that'd be unpopular with most users.

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araneus

wavedash said in forum #437739:

If changing magical girl is a no-go, what if traditional magical girl was made, in the vein of traditional nun?

I guess that would work too, but adding these new sub-tags to old posts would still be a daunting task.

PersonalFowl said in forum #437727:

How many kinds of "magical girls" are there anyway, do you reckon? Just the traditional kind and the science fiction types? More?

Well, first we should at least remove the "変身ヒロイン"(henshin hiroine) from the Other Name field of the magical girl tag. "Henshin Heroine" is the catch-all umbrella tag for all characters who can transform into a Power form on pixiv. This category includes:

First, of course, traditional magical girls (cute/frilly outfits, literal magic, and animal mascots).

Second, Sci-fi/Tokusatsu hybrid characters we discussed above, they fall outside the Japanese definition of "魔法少女" but are commonly considered as magical girl in the West (e.g., Symphogear). I haven't found a single tag that perfectly defines this subset, but it might be broadly included in the "バトルヒロイン"(battle heroines, implying they use more non-magical fighting methods, such as martial combat, melee weapons, or sci-fi technological weapon .etc).

Besides these two categories, Henshin Heroines also include types that wouldn't be recognized as magical girls even in the West. Such as Super Sentai/Kamen Rider style masked or armored heroines, Ultraman-style giantesses heroines, ninja heroines like Taimanin (Series), and even Western Superheroes like Supergirl or Wonder Woman. Though these types are not frequently mislabeled here, but there are still some cases of mislabeling due to the Other Name system, such as post #9590885 mentioned above).

Updated by araneus

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araneus

Just a small bump to keep the discussion going.

To start with something manageable: is there any objection to removing 変身ヒロイン (Henshin Heroine) from the Other Name field of magical_girl? If not, I'll modify that section on tag wiki first.

As discussed, "Henshin Heroine" is a much broader concept, Removing this mapping would prevent some non-magical characters from being mistagged.

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