Miles Morales fix

BUR #56019 is pending approval.

create implication spider-man_(miles_morales) -> spider-man

With that formally done, it's time to finally decide whether or not we want Spider-Man to be the tag for all Spider-Man-derived designs.

As this is the tag that keeps causing all the trouble, it only makes sense to use it for this deciding BUR. Presumably, given the last BUR got upvoted, this is what we want to do, but now that we're at this point, someone could still swoop in to express their disagreement.

If this does get approved, I wonder if the same should be done for Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan) and Ms. Marvel. If so, it gives me a good reference on what to do for hero aliases that are used by multiple people.

ElfinElixir said in forum #422935:

If this does get approved, I wonder if the same should be done for Ms. Marvel (Kamala Khan) and Ms. Marvel. If so, it gives me a good reference on what to do for hero aliases that are used by multiple people.

If it does, it also means that you'd need to make a tag for the appearance currently being represented by the base tag (in this case, making ms._marvel_(carol_danvers).

Damian0358 said in forum #422936:

If it does, it also means that you'd need to make a tag for the appearance currently being represented by the base tag (in this case, making ms._marvel_(carol_danvers).

Gotcha. I'll be keeping that in mind should this be approved.

@Damian0358

I'd like to thank you for figuring this situation out on my behalf.

@ElfinElixir

Already on it on topic #35279, along with other things.

Giga_Skunk said in forum #423091:

I'd like to thank you for figuring this situation out on my behalf.

Already on it on topic #35279, along with other things.

Giga, you could've waited to see what the decision on BUR #56019 would be first...

Damian0358 said in forum #423094:

Giga, you could've waited to see what the decision on BUR #56019 would be first...

I wanted to write it out before I forgot the process.

Implying all different suits/versions of this super-hero to Spider-Man is something that in my opinion would just make the current problem worse. Are we also going to imply Spider-Man Noir and Spider-Man India and Spider-Man (2099) to it? It seems absurd, Noir and O'Hara are distinctly different characters, nobody would confuse them for Peter Parker. It'd be like implying Superboy to Superman.

The cleanest (and most intuitive) solution to me would be to rename Spider-Man into Spider-Man (Peter Parker), and make it mutually exclusive with Spider-Man (Miles Morales). It's already enough of an issue keeping all different version of the original Peter Parker together, if we start grouping all spider-men together into a single tag it just becomes a giant soup.

Making spider-man an umbrella tag for all incarnations of Spider-Man would still require us to have a spider-man (peter parker) tag to search only for him, since we're not using Peter Parker to narrow it down. And we couldn't anyway, since there's also his older version Peter B Parker (though maybe that should be implied to peter parker, since there's many versions of peter parker including a different one for every sony movie reboot).

But the Spider-Man tag already isn't just Peter Parker. Yamashiro Takuya and Onomae Yuu both use the original red suit, and are resultantly tagged with the tag when paired with their respective copyrights, Spider-Man (Toei) and Spider-Man: Itsuwari no Aka.

The problem is, specific suits tend to be strongly associated with different characters. Look at the tagging for Miguel O'Hara for an example. It's only peter's generic/original suits that are sometimes worn by other characters, and even then, it's only at the start of their miniseries/origin stories while they're enstablishing themselves as yet another spider-man incarnation, and they all eventually tend to get their own custom version, because

• the spiderverse was a big thing in the comics even before the animated movies, so they needed to be visually distinct
• marvel wants to constantly market new toys.

Superior Spider-Man is another case that comes to mind.

Even Yamashiro Takuya and Onomae Yuu get their own slightly-different suits:

• https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Takuya_Yamashiro_(Earth-51778) (narrower eyes, tokusatsu bracelet)
• https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/0/0b/Screwball_%28Earth-19759%29_from_Spider-Man_Fake_Red_Vol_1_6_001.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20230105065824 (note the white spider logo)

Having the original symbiote suit and the original red suit implied to spider-man (peter parker) makes perfect sense if we use that tag specifically for the original suits used by Peter Parker.

Besides these notes, I don't have a good solution.

nonamethanks said in forum #424231:

• https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/0/0b/Screwball_%28Earth-19759%29_from_Spider-Man_Fake_Red_Vol_1_6_001.jpeg/revision/latest?cb=20230105065824 (note the white spider logo)

If we're going to note the white spider logo for Yuu's Spider-Man, we also have to note that Peter has had multiple white spider logo'd suits, most recognizably today the suit used in the newer Marvel's Spider-Man set of games, asset #44409397, since that's Peter's original suit in those games. Your line of argument, particularly taking into account your comments for Takuya, would see us make suit tags for each of the Spider-Man movie series, one for each of the Peters' suits.

Yeah but that's not the "original suit". It's completely different from the classic suit:

If we're dumping even the video game suit into the original suit tag, then the original suit tag is pointless.

nonamethanks said in forum #424233:

Yeah but that's not the "original suit". It's completely different from the classic suit:

If we're dumping even the video game suit into the original suit tag, then the original suit tag is pointless.

Even the classic suit has variances that makes the inclusion of the video game suit acceptable, consider post #10220796 and compare Peter, Mayday, and Teenage Peter, with Teenage Peter's mask (i.e. 60s/70s-style Spider-Man) resembling Takuya's mask.

You are trying to have a tag for all red suits, of which there are a million variants. There's only one original suit, and it's not the one you linked - that's the Advanced Suit 2.0. If you call it "original suit", I think of the cartoon suit or the one from the first comic arc, not one introduced in a video game from this decade.

Why do you think I initially just called it (red_suit) and struggled to think of a better name? A tag that was narrowly focused on the most basic iteration of his suit was destined to be flooded by folks tagging it on the other red suits, because those suits would not have tags for one reason or another (most of all copyright tags), and you'd run into issues when the design is abstracted into logos like post #5394242, which is obviously based on the red design, but which one is up in the air because the logo is based on the mask, the thing that's the most similar between all the red suits, not to mention adapted costumes.

This is also part of why (symbiote_suit) is only a utility alias for the black suit tag, because it similarly would just get flooded by folks tagging it on the other basic black suits, especially as Peter himself has had non-symbiote black suits in the comics that are in the same style.

@nonamethanks now that you mention it, I guess it does make more sense renaming Spider-Man to Spider-Man (Peter Parker). All of this considered. I still see a path for nesting all Spider-Men under Spider-Man, but I’ve yet to consider spider-women and spider-girls.

I do have an issue with tags like Spider-Man 2099 being separate from Miguel O Hara as I find taggers tend to use them simultaneously and interchangeably. I would suggest, but not explicitly recommend or BUR (Yet), nesting either civilian identities under the hero name or vice versa.

Giga_Skunk said in forum #424441:

I do have an issue with tags like Spider-Man 2099 being separate from Miguel O Hara as I find taggers tend to use them simultaneously and interchangeably. I would suggest, but not explicitly recommend or BUR (Yet), nesting either civilian identities under the hero name or vice versa.

Doing that would go against current standing precedent on how to handle civilian and hero chartags.

Giga_Skunk said in forum #424441:

I still see a path for nesting all Spider-Men under Spider-Man, but I’ve yet to consider spider-women and spider-girls.

That's just Spider-Man (Series). We have an overall series tag for all spider-men, so we don't need an umbrella character tag.

Damian0358 said in forum #424506:

Doing that would go against current standing precedent on how to handle civilian and hero chartags.

We need to come up with a policy dedicated specifically to superheroes, because the policy we're trying to apply comes from magical girl shows, and that doesn't work for us. It's silly that we can't search for Superman and Clark Kent at the same time (and a combined search has 300 results because nobody cares to distinguish them). Similarly, Bruce Wayne IS Batman, no matter how hard you try to hammer this policy into people's head.

We need some sort of implication structure.

nonamethanks said in forum #425005:

Similarly, Bruce Wayne IS Batman, no matter how hard you try to hammer this policy into people's head.

You saying that reminded me of forum #307597.

Oh man did I open a can of worms?

@nonamethanks said in forum #425005:

That's just Spider-Man (Series) [...]

Technically,Cloak and Dagger apply for the Spider-Man (Series) solely by being "Spider-Man" characters.

Likewise Spider-Woman is technically an avengers character, but because most people aren't comic geeks they may slap Spider-Man (Series) on her.

There are so many Marvel and DC characters I think any solution would best be tested on a less populated Superhero franchise, like Invincible.

Alternate Marks like Viltrumite Invincible, omni-invincible, and Sinister Invincible for can nested under Invincible (Character) the way I wanted no problem. We can treat these guys like the alternative Spider-Man and work from there.