Razorzim11 said: I hope tsukihime team gets wiped out.
why the hate? Besides it's practically impossible to wipe them out since they have the immortal Ciel, uber vampire queen and the 'a cat is fine too' Shiki
raidodol said: why the hate? Besides it's practically impossible to wipe them out since they have the immortal Ciel, uber vampire queen and the 'a cat is fine too' Shiki
raidodol said: why the hate? Besides it's practically impossible to wipe them out since they have the immortal Ciel, uber vampire queen and the 'a cat is fine too' Shiki
Well, Saber has Avalon, which pretty much makes her immortal..., also Archer is waaay too garly to be wiped out by the Tsukihime team, and Gilgamesh can totally h4x the whole world with his Gates of Babylon
raidodol said: why the hate? Besides it's practically impossible to wipe them out since they have the immortal Ciel, uber vampire queen and the 'a cat is fine too' Shiki
oh, sorry about that I was kidding in reality, didn't mean to affend anyone.
lulzovich said: Well, Saber has Avalon, which pretty much makes her immortal..., also Archer is waaay too garly to be wiped out by the Tsukihime team, and Gilgamesh can totally h4x the whole world with his Gates of Babylon
Not to mention that Sakura can trap pretty much anyone with her shadow magic. It doesn't matter if Ciel is immortal if she spends the rest of eternity inside Sakura...
Of course it depends a hell of a lot on what versions of each character they use. If you took what was left of the FSN cast following HF, then they'd provide a pretty good match for the Tsukihime characters. On the other hand, if you took what was left following Fate, they'd be screwed.
Well Shiki can pretty much kill everything as long as it's not a phenomenon like Night of Wallachia... I wonder if Angra Mainyu is phenomenon too, Avalon, and Gate of Babylon.. not they aren't so they can be'killed' by Shiki eyes
Shiki destroyed Reality Marble in 1 hit, chap 3 I believe.
And Tsukihime cast in this in Melty Blood version, so Arcueid can pretty much go berserk and Nanaya Shiki may appear also. And Rider + Sakuya are already defeated by Ciel
kouma said: Shiki destroyed Reality Marble in 1 hit, chap 3 I believe. And Tsukihime cast in this in Melty Blood version, so Arcueid can pretty much go berserk and Nanaya Shiki may appear also. And Rider + Sakuya are already defeated by Ciel
That's because the author of this doujin is a Tsukihime faggot that doesn't know the servants identities... Because doesn't matter if you're inmortal, if Rider see you without glasses, you are petrified, and vampire regeneration can't cure that... And medea being owned by Nero? this is only shit...
At any rate, it takes only Arcueid to defeat all if not most of the Fate cast. And don't forget that in Melty blood Arcueid is more powerful than in the beginning of Tsukihime(before being killed by Shiki)because she got back the power Roa stole from her, that's why she might be able to use 40/50% of her power instead of her standar 30%. I am pretty sure in Melty blood she can easily defeat Gilgamesh or Altrouge. And there is no way someone could survive her Alt Nagel or 18 dissection
Yeah, I'm not at all convinced that Rider could take down Arc. But, IMO, there's no way in hell that Ciel could take down Rider and Sakura. In fact, I'm pretty sure that Nasu has stated that, canonically, Ciel can't defeat a servant (although, she could perhaps hold one off for a while in a defensive battle), and IIRC Ciel has no ability as a magus (or, very little), so she'd get petrified by Rider for sure. And, Shiki taking down UBW is utterly absurd. Maybe the other Shiki (from KnK) would be able to do that, but Tsukihime Shiki wouldm't have a chance, and even if he did manage it it would kill his mind.
Oh, and BTW, Shiki can't cut a servant using his MEoDP, either. That's also canon. That doujin is obivously written by a Tsukihime fan, who wrote it solely for the purpose of having the Tsukihime characters kick the asses of the FSN ones, seemingly.
Tsukihime probably would win, in the end, but it would consist of the Tsukihime people all geting curb-stomped by the servants until Arc showed up.
Belfortality said: That's because the author of this doujin is a Tsukihime faggot that doesn't know the servants identities... Because doesn't matter if you're inmortal, if Rider see you without glasses, you are petrified, and vampire regeneration can't cure that... And medea being owned by Nero? this is only shit...
Actually...I'm fairly certain Riders petrification depends on the opponents Magical resistance. Low resistance people get petrified, high resistance gets hampered slightly.
cheeseheadphones said: You guys are forgetting about Rin's Jewel Sword Zelretch and her uncanny ability to make anyone into her servant.
IMO I'm going with the latter, in the end of this Arc will end up Rin's servant. /Game over.
Jewelled Sword Zelretch
probably couldn't take down Arc. She's stated to be about as powerful as 4 servants....
Of course, any remotely sensible plot would end with all of them working out that, actually, they're all good guys. Especially Arc. She could easily enough wipe out the entire FSN cast (unless they all fought her at the same time, that is), but I don't imagine that she would, provided that they hadn't killed any of the Tsukihime good guys first.
naoan said: Then ciel shouldn't really get affected since Roa himself noted that he regret leaving a host with such magical capacity
Except that, IIRC, the eyes work perfectly fine on Rin or Shirou, and Rin in particular is an exceptionally powerful magus. It's only really servants that can resist them, because in terms of ability to store prana, pretty much all servants are miles ahead of even the strongest magus.
In any case, Ciel would still lose to Rider. She simply doesn't have the weaponry to take her down. Plus, the eyes still weaken the enemy, even if they can't be petrified by them.
rtdgmdsdff said: Jewelled Sword Zelretch probably couldn't take down Arc. She's stated to be about as powerful as 4 servants....
If I remember right, Nasu said this as a joke not really something to be taken seriously. If we have to take the cannon sources any noble phantasm of B rank or higher can kill Arc, so yes the jeweled sword (which is simular to mini excaliber) can kill Arc. As to servant comparing, Arc would lose against two average servants and we know that the servants in fate stay night are above that (especially Gil and Berserker).
Face it, this doujin is only made to watch how much the fate crew can get their but kicked. I just completely lolled at how a "freaking" A magic rank gem that could blow away a house couldn't hurt nero's stupid puppy. (Not to mention about what shirou's twin swords noble phantasms could do.)
frenze said: If I remember right, Nasu said this as a joke not really something to be taken seriously. If we have to take the cannon sources any noble phantasm of B rank or higher can kill Arc, so yes the jeweled sword (which is simular to mini excaliber) can kill Arc. As to servant comparing, Arc would lose against two average servants and we know that the servants in fate stay night are above that (especially Gil and Berserker).
Lol, the world always makes sure that Arcueid is more powerful than her oponent, even thought he said he was talking in a non-serious way, that was because it isn't 100% accurate because the servants noble phantasm can boost their powers. He said that Arcueid might have trouble fighting against two servants, but she can easily win against one. The only servant who can stand a chance against her is Gilgamesh due to his large amount of weapons. I know you are a Fate fan, but you must understand that Arcueid's stats are above all the servants because the world boosts her power. That's why Saber, Archer or Berserker are no match for her by themselves, only Gilgamesh. And Arcueid alt nagel and 18 dissection can easily kill anyone from the Fate cast, including Gilgamesh
And of course Rin winning over Arcueid is denitely out of the question. Even with her jeweled sword, which I am sure can't do any harm to Arcueid. Rin is just a human, she will be killed in a blink, I am pretty sure Sion is stronger than her, and Sion said that her chances of killing Arcueid was one in ten millions
james_marcus said: And of course Rin winning over Arcueid is denitely out of the question. Even with her jeweled sword, which I am sure can't do any harm to Arcueid. Rin is just a human, she will be killed in a blink, I am pretty sure Sion is stronger than her, and Sion said that her chances of killing Arcueid was one in ten millions
You are funny, you believe what Nasu said about Arc's strenght x4 but ignore what he said about the "rank B or higher noble phantasm can kill her". And please Arc isn't invinsible you know,tsukihime is proof of this. By this definition almost any servant in fate have a change to kill her.
frenze said: You are funny, you believe what Nasu said about Arc's strenght x4 but ignore what he said about the "rank B or higher noble phantasm can kill her". And please Arc isn't invinsible you know,tsukihime is proof of this. By this definition almost any servant in fate have a change to kill her.
Oh? would you mind telling me where he said this?, or give me the source? I never heard it. What I heard was that a servant with an average ranking (B) Noble Phantasm can fight against Kouma, Aoko and all the dead apostoles, Arc wasn't mentioned anywhere. And the 4 times amount of power mentioned by Nasu is the maximum amount of power she gets depending on how powerful her enemy is. Her basic stats are just as strong as an average servant but due to the counter-force modifiers she'll get the power of 2 servants entity stats(probably the equivalent of Berseker). Nasu said that Arc would probably win against a single servant, and Arcueid's marble phantasm can do almost anything. What if she summons a full moon? would they be able to kill her? And in the worst case scenery, if they kill her, Gaia will just bring her back at full power/Archetype Earth form, just like in Roa's MBAA ending. And you know how powerful she is at 100% right? not even the whole Fate cast together will be able to defeat her
Taken from the matome site - these are all from official interviews with Kinoko from Comptiq, Dengeki Hime, or Techgian. Q. I have a question about the Servants vs. other character answer in the 9th issue of Comptiq. About a Servant with an average Noble Phantasm, who would have one and what rank would that have been? A: That's a serious question. The level of the Noble Phantasm would be B, and ability being represented by numbers would be called an average Noble Phantasm. Broken Phantasm, Barrier of the Wind King (C), Gae Bolg (thrown) (B), that sort.
On the other hand, those with conceptual effects, destiny interference types fall into a special category. With Gae Bolg (regular), no matter how much Arcueid might be superior to Lancer in numbers, she will be killed depending on her luck, you see.
Even though we can assume Lancer has the "means" to kill Arc, that doesn't mean a win. Not only would Arc beat Lancer in most stats, but we can easily assume that her marble phantasm could reconstruct her heart after a successful Gae Bolg. And if her restraints are released she could without question annihilate the whole FSN cast.
And about Shiki killing concepts such as UBW. From what it looks it doesn't look impossible. remember in Ceil's route he killed nature itself to weaken Arc. And Nasu hasn't stated that his eyes can't kill servants, only that he's physically incapable of keeping up with them.
ketuekigami said: Even though we can assume Lancer has the "means" to kill Arc, that doesn't mean a win. Not only would Arc beat Lancer in most stats, but we can easily assume that her marble phantasm could reconstruct her heart after a successful Gae Bolg. And if her restraints are released she could without question annihilate the whole FSN cast.
And about Shiki killing concepts such as UBW. From what it looks it doesn't look impossible. remember in Ceil's route he killed nature itself to weaken Arc. And Nasu hasn't stated that his eyes can't kill servants, only that he's physically incapable of keeping up with them.
You do you know that a wound with gao bolg practically can't be healed right? (the only person who actually survived a stab in the heart from that lance had avalon and even then it required mana and some time). You can be assured that if Arc wants to heal a wound like that it's going to require a lot of her power (just like in the beginning of tsukihime).
I doubt even a 100% Arc could afford herself being hit by excaliber (not to mention EA), Excaliber isn't called a last phantasm (strongest noble phantasm forged by the planet) for nothing. But discussing this is meaningless because a 100% Arc will never happen.
frenze said: You do you know that a wound with gao bolg practically can't be healed right? (the only person who actually survived a stab in the heart from that lance had avalon and even then it required mana and some time). You can be assured that if Arc wants to heal a wound like that it's going to require a lot of her power (just like in the beginning of tsukihime).
Doubtful. Arc had to reconstruct the entire conceptual structure of her body because Shiki cut her into 17 pieces. Just regenerating the wound and reconstructing the area around it wouldn't take nearly as much power as reconstructing her entire body from the ground up.
I doubt even a 100% Arc could afford herself being hit by excaliber (not to mention EA), Excaliber isn't called a last phantasm (strongest noble phantasm forged by the planet) for nothing. But discussing this is meaningless because a 100% Arc will never happen.
Says who? We're dealing with fan works here, anything's possible.
There is no "will never happen", we are fans and we are assuming IF they were to clash. Of course we put all of them at 100% power (or even more, if you're some hardcore fan)
If you say 100% Arc can't happen because of the story in Tsukihime, then 1 excalibur and Saber will also gone. Unless she has sex with Shirou while fighting.
frenze said: I doubt even a 100% Arc could afford herself being hit by excaliber (not to mention EA), Excaliber isn't called a last phantasm (strongest noble phantasm forged by the planet) for nothing.
And I doubt Saber or Gilgumesh could survive having the Moon fall on them. It's not called the Moon for nothing. You do realize that Arc draws her power directly from the Earth itself don't you? Her marble phantasm can create conditions with the same destructive power as Excalibur itself. Are you going to say that any of the servants could survive that? Excalibur isn't released in an instant, it takes time of gathering mana and calling it's name. Saber would be dead before finishing.
frenze said: I doubt even a 100% Arc could afford herself being hit by excaliber (not to mention EA), Excaliber isn't called a last phantasm (strongest noble phantasm forged by the planet) for nothing
Arcueid has unlimited back up from the planet, you might say this is just like mana, but unlimited. And if Gilgamesh wants to do any serious damage to Arcueid with Ea, he is gonna have to charge it, of course he doesn't have that time, same for Excalibur. All Arcueid needs to do is summon a full moon or use the same method she did against Roa in Tsukihime, except this time they are not going to survive
Everyone is talking about Arc having unlimited backup from the world, but I ask of you where was this backup in tsukihime when she fought Nero and Roa? It doesn't seem so great as it sounds doesn't it?
Avalon is a shield, not a device that nullify every attack. It couldn't help Shirou from dying when he fall from the 3rd/4th/5th/6th floor of the school. Gravity is awesome.
kouma said: Avalon is a shield, not a device that nullify every attack. It couldn't help Shirou from dying when he fall from the 3rd/4th/5th/6th floor of the school. Gravity is awesome.
You should read the text of Avalon, it doesn't nullify, it littery shuts of any attack and that's why it is called the ultimate defense that even the five soceries couldn't penetrate it. And if you know that zelretch could stop the moon from falling with the second magic, it is pretty clear to me which one is stronger.
The ultimate power which stopped the 'Moon Fall', usable only by Zelretch and those of his lineage. The heirloom of the Tohsaka family, though Zelretch left them only the blueprints as a sort of long-term homework.The ultimate power which stopped the 'Moon Fall', usable only by Zelretch and those of his lineage. The heirloom of the Tohsaka family, though Zelretch left them only the blueprints as a sort of long-term homework.
But you forget that rin get's powerfull afterwords, she was stated to be in the top hundred strongest magi in the history of clock tower. Not almighty as zelretch but still among the strongest. And it might vary on which ending you take, since at heavens feel ending zelretch himself comes to choose Rin as his pupil.
frenze said: Everyone is talking about Arc having unlimited backup from the world, but I ask of you where was this backup in tsukihime when she fought Nero and Roa? It doesn't seem so great as it sounds doesn't it?
She does have unlimited backup, but it's not given to her in that amount. It's given in direct correlation to the enemy, for her to be a bit stronger then them. (Applies to 30% and lower Arc) She was practically near death by Shiki's surprise attack. And since 70% of her power is always used to suppress her vamperic impulses, if given a number I'd say that the Arc in Tsukihime could use only about 10% or less of her power. And even then she was standing up against 2 (kinda) of the 27 dead apostles. There is a reason why there's no mention of Nero in the far side route, it's because Arc either killed him or he didn't fight her because he knew he would lose.
You do realize that you are directly going against something that Nasu stated as fact. By that you have absolutely no baring in your argument. You can't play favorites over the facts here. Shiki is my 2nd favorite character ever but I'll admit he'd get rocked against a servant.
frenze said: And against Arc moon drop I have only one word: Avalon
... You can't stay in Avalon forever, and when she gets out, she dies.
And If you are trying to say that Rin could beat Arc the same way Zelretch did to Crimson moon... no, just no.
The problem with a Tsukihime vs Fate battle is that Arcueid is the only really overpowerd one of the Tsukihime cast (don`t get me wrong some of the other caracters of Tsukihime are also damn powerfull expecially Ciel, but they are no match for Servants). So while Arc could probably beat most/all of the Fate cast in a one-on--one fight, it is stated by Nasu that she would have troubles against two average Servants and the Servents of Fate are NOT average! And Gil could probably take her out alone (also backed up by Nasu), Don`t forget how massively overpowerd this guy is!
And what is this about Arc dropping the moon? I know that Crimson Moon could do/did it but Arc? She is not as powerfull as CM, mostly because she has to use 70% of her power to suppress her vamperic impulses and probably partly because she is a close but not perfect copy of CM.
And even if she could (and ignoring the fact that it would kill all of the other Tsukihime cast and humanity as a whole) I would think that a full powerd EA would probably be able to blow up the moon considering that it is an Anti-World NP?!
So all in all both sides are ridiculously powerfull but the Servants are just to h4x...
Nasu also ended the sentence about having trouble with 2 servants with a "...maybe". And he stated the sentence with "if I were to say it in a sort of non-serious way". And the interview about Servants against Arc didn't really mention ones with an average noble phantasm. It was the part against other Tsukihime cast that he mentions it. Arcs power is more formulated about the power of her opponent, which determines the amount of mana the earth supply's to her. Against even Saber, Arc would be supplied enough power to be stronger then her. http://tatari.110mb.com/fuyuki/totallyunofficialpowerrankings.htm
And not to mention that Sasaki Assassin would fall under the category of an average servant, but he still fought even grounded against everyone else, and was even able to fend off an invasion by Berserker. Also, while its true that Gil is stronger then 30% Arc (in a very confusing equation)... he's Gil after all, he will find a way to lose. He would have to go all out to fight above her, and that isn't how he would start the fight, which could easily be his downfall.
Melty Blood confirmed released Arc's the ability to drop the moon. Even then dropping the moon is a last resort seeing as how it will kill all life. The earth without the moon isn't a pretty picture.
And I don't think Ea works that way. Its an anti-world but only because it destroys time and space that it comes in contact with. I seriously doubt it has the power to destroy the earth or moon itself. Its like the old legends where they would say "Excalibur could split the heavens in two", or that "Hercules held the weight of the sky for a day in place of Atlas for one of his twelve trials", but here its clearly not like that. Its an exaggeration to show power, and not completely accurate.
It's also all relative. If it was a free for all with all servants against 30% Arc she would lose round one, but possibly revive at 100% to rape everyone. but if we are throwing everyone into the mix then Nero, Aoko, Kouma, and others would join Tsuki and slightly level the playing field more.
No offence but your taking up an unofficial power ranking, nothing in there is actually said by Nasu. And the reason why Gil is said to stronger according to Nasu is because he holds a destructive output simular to 4-5 servants (GOB). In reality Gil is simular to saber, Berserker is the one who is the strongest.
Melty blood isn't really something to be taken canon since the shiki's and other characters are different
And the modifiers for Arc only work according to the opposite strenght. It would show the best resuls against someone like berserker but against someone weaker who has a extremely powerfull noble phantasm or ability it is the worst. For example don't expect Arc suddenly getting stronger when Gil or saber uses their noble phantasms.
So is everything you was saying said by Nasu? It's like asking ZUN the power ranking of Touhou. At least use some information to back up your theory rather than "It's not said by the author". Btw Melty Blood is canon, the characters were changed by Walachia.
The manga is based on a fighting video game and not only is shiki power shifted compared to tsukihime, some characters like Arc are behaving more (airheaded) wierd than they should. And I'm not talking about Walachia's evil copies of them.
And if you want Nasu to talk then here is it."In the definition of Arcueid's strength, there's this thing where "her output changes according to her opponent". As an absolute order taken from her backup, the planet, she is allowed only an output a little stronger than her opponent. And. Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level" Note: 1)Nasu is talking about 30% Arc,2) The strenght of servant does not include their abilities/noble phantasm, this is pure stat wise. Basically this is saying that a servant with a lot of firepower like Gil (GoB, EA, generaly the archer class) or other (God hand, reality marble, nine lives blades works,...) are bad luck to Arc.
frenze said: The manga is based on a fighting video game and not only is shiki power shifted compared to tsukihime, some characters like Arc are behaving more (airheaded) wierd than they should. And I'm not talking about Walachia's evil copies of them.
Are you talking about the Melty Blood manga? But you should keep your focus on the game not the manga, the manga is not 100% accurate to the game. By the way, the true path of MB(Night of the Bloody Liar)is the canon path, and I don't see any of the characters in there acting in an "airheaded way" like you said, specially Arcueid, since she appears to be a lot more serious. Unless you are talking about the random quotes of some characters, but still, is completely normal for Arcueid to be a little more relaxed since she got her power back, and doesn't need to worry about Roa anymore, plus she has all the time in the world to be with Shiki
I don't know what you are trying to prove with all this, that some other servants might be able to defeat Arc? I don't think so, this has already been discussed in other forums, if you are saying the Noble phantasm from some servants might be able to damage her, that's true, but not only Arc's regenerative habilities are God tier, her speed and strenght will always be above any servant she is facing. And the Milenium Castle is a reality marble too, it can cancel Archer's UMB(assuming he doesn't die first)At any rate most of Arc's marble phantasm attacks are one hit kill(like the one she used against Roa) and her Alt Nagel or 18 dissection and they are much faster than Ea or Excalibur. And the original Roa is more powerful than any servant anyway, seeing how he defeated Altrouge (who is stronger than 30%Arc) it gives you an idea of how powerful he is, Gilgamesh might put up a good fight against him, but he will be defeated eventually
frenze said: No offence but your taking up an unofficial power ranking, nothing in there is actually said by Nasu.
Are you saying you know more then these people who have played all the games, read Nasu's interviews (which are actually there so I don't know why you are saying there's nothing said by Nasu), and read the fact sheets and character materials? That's an awfully big assumption. I seriously doubt your more knowledgeable then them on this subject.
frenze said: And the reason why Gil is said to stronger according to Nasu is because he holds a destructive output simular to 4-5 servants (GOB). In reality Gil is simular to saber, Berserker is the one who is the strongest.
Gil has advantages but GoB isn't perfect. Hell Berserker zero was able to grab the weapons as they were being fired and deflect them with the grabbed weapon. Lancalot was amazing but I would easily say Arc has at least that amount of agility. Gil would win at first (before she revives) if he was 100% serious the whole time, but we both know that wouldn't be the way it would happen. And Saber is strong (even Shirou Saber). Her stats and fighting ability are far far above Gil. I don't know what your talking about.
james_marcus said: I don't know what you are trying to prove with all this, that some other servants might be able to defeat Arc? I don't think so, this has already been discussed in other forums, if you are saying the Noble phantasm from some servants might be able to damage her, that's true, but not only Arc's regenerative habilities are God tier, her speed and strenght will always be above any servant she is facing. And the Milenium Castle is a reality marble too, it can cancel Archer's UMB(assuming he doesn't die first)At any rate most of Arc's marble phantasm attacks are one hit kill(like the one she used against Roa) and her Alt Nagel or 18 dissection and they are much faster than Ea or Excalibur. And the original Roa is more powerful than any servant anyway, seeing how he defeated Altrouge (who is stronger than 30%Arc) it gives you an idea of how powerful he is, Gilgamesh might put up a good fight against him, but he will be defeated eventually
LOl what did I just said
frenze said: And if you want Nasu to talk then here is it."In the definition of Arcueid's strength, there's this thing where "her output changes according to her opponent". As an absolute order taken from her backup, the planet, she is allowed only an output a little stronger than her opponent. And. Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level"
This is word for word what Nasu said, now read that last sentence if you please? "Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level" Basically a fight between a servant isn't going to be a "Arc rapes all festival" 2) Even if a servants has stronger stats (berserker) Arc is only allowed to be little stronger.
And yes to your information I played both tsukihime and fate And I frequently search for more info. Enough to know that if needed servants can bring out their noble phantasms instantly, check fate final fight, UBW, and rider vs dark saber if you please will. compared to this Arc's summoning of her marble phantasm isn't something you could instantly.
ketuekigami said: Are you saying you know more then these people who have played all the games, read Nasu's interviews (which are actually there so I don't know why you are saying there's nothing said by Nasu), and read the fact sheets and character materials? That's an awfully big assumption. I seriously doubt your more knowledgeable then them on this subject.
Gil has advantages but GoB isn't perfect. Hell Berserker zero was able to grab the weapons as they were being fired and deflect them with the grabbed weapon. Lancalot was amazing but I would easily say Arc has at least that amount of agility. Gil would win at first (before she revives) if he was 100% serious the whole time, but we both know that wouldn't be the way it would happen. And Saber is strong (even Shirou Saber). Her stats and fighting ability are far far above Gil. I don't know what your talking about.
zero berserker: 1)even if wasn't summoned as a berserker he would still be very strong 2)the reason why he such a good fighter while being enchanted with madness was because of noble phantasms/abilities. He had A+ Eternal Arms Mastership which prevents degradation of fighting skills when under the effect of mental hindrance. He probaly was the only berserker who actually could fight at his fullest in the intire holy grail war. 3) I bet if you combine the above with Knight of Honor (rank A++) it isn't really that suprising he could catch some of Gil's GoB rain. 4) How much noble phantasms did Gil throw at berserker? 10-17 max. I like to see him doing the same against 50 or more (like the Gil in fate).
Why is it so difficult to believe if 2 average servants with B rank noble phantasms have at least a change of bringing down Arc 30% (hence the "maby") that a higher rank servant with A or higher rank noble phantasm can't have a change to? I don't think I am saying something that's impossible.
frenze said: Arc can die you know, forever I mean. If she didn't regained Roa's stolen power she could never regenerate herself.
I seriously doubt the planet was going to let her die in Tsukihime, In Roa's MBAA ending, he kills her with the MEoDP and since she didn't had enough energy to revive by herself the planet brings her back at full power. The planet doesn't have a Type, so Arcueid plays that role, because she is a close copy of an Aristotle, Gaia will do everything in her power to keep her alive.
This was also said by Nasu:
And the "5 Servants + a" line is a comparison of simple "firepower". Like with the "corpses", foot soldier level opponents aren't going to be avoiding their attacks, so the ones who'd have the advantage are the ones who have more weapons. The reason why Servants excellent at one-on-one combat didn't stand out in Broad Bridge was because of this. Also, for normal Arc, she would get approximately the equivalent of 2 Servants single entity stats.
And this note: A bunch of different ways of interpreting this from what I've seen. The 4 times amount mentioned in previous Kinoko comments earlier could be the maximum amount of Arc in her 30% state that she gets depending on how powerful her enemy is. Or something similar, but on average she's going to be less than that. Base stats could be the same as one average Servant, but due to the Counter Force modifier this is adjusted to 2 times the amount of one Servant (not factoring in Noble Phantasm powers or amounts; probably the equivalent of Berserker).
30% Arc basic stats are the same as an average servant, 30% Arc with modifiers = 2 servants entity stats, and the 4 times amount of power is the maximun power she can get, against Berserker she will probably have the strenght of 3 servants. And all servants die after getting hit by an A or higher noble phantasm? even if that were the case, Arcueid's strength, defense and speed are higher than a servant, let alone her godly healing hability, so in the end her speed and strenght will be almost twice as Gilgamesh, assuming she is fighting against him. A fight between them will not be one sided, I still think Gil might win in the end, but if he underestimate her or hold back, he is doomed
I'd say TYPE-MOON joins the fight.. Every single discussion in this thread is over.. Seriously guys, this kind of debate is practically useless because you know what? Nasu doesn't care..
frenze said: Why is it so difficult to believe if 2 average servants with B rank noble phantasms have at least a change of bringing down Arc 30% (hence the "maby") that a higher rank servant with A or higher rank noble phantasm can't have a change to? I don't think I am saying something that's impossible.
Again... Nasu never mentioned noble phantasm rank in the part of the interview relating to Arc. And yes, you are saying the impossible. Why? Because Nasu said so on several occasions not in so many words. The closest he came was that destiny interfering NP's "can" kill her, but killing her once doesn't end the fight.
frenze said: And yes to your information I played both tsukihime and fate And I frequently search for more info.
I'm guessing so has everyone else arguing against you... But I don't say I know more then people that have obviously done more then me in research, and those are the people at fuyuki and Beasts Lair. If you really researched like you say you have you'd know how often this argument appears, and that the almost overwhelming outcome is that Arc wins. And also that the people arguing against this are those with incredible favor to F/SN characters making them incredibly biased.
frenze said: Arc can die you know, forever I mean. If she didn't regained Roa's stolen power she could never regenerate herself.
What? Then what are you going to call directly what happened at the beginning of Tsukihime? He vampiric healing abilities are great but that's just one thing, her marble phantasm and backing from the planet make her as close to immortal as you can get without reaching Ceil levels. Hell she came back from being slaughtered by the MEoDP, the ability that is death itself. Her "healing" abilities are beyond understanding. I would even go so far as to say she can revive perhaps minutes after a direct Excalibur (not that it would ever hit her), so a couple hundred swords from GoB are no problem. Roa revived with just his ankles left, and he isn't the reincarnation of Crimson Moon. What does that tell you about the healing abilities of a vampire.
1) You are forgetting that noble phantasms aren't just normal weapons. Each one has it's own special effect. 2) Even a E-rank noble phantasm is the equivalent of a very powerfull magic weapon. That aside black key's can't kill a servant while it could finish of most vampires pretty easy. You can be asure that a hit with GoB is going to hurt a lot! 3) Each time Arc dies, she uses up some of her power, that was the reason at the end of tsukihime she couldn't regenerate. So basically killing Arc makes her weaker untill she doesn't have enough power to revive herself.
Yes Nasu hasn't said the requirement rank of the noble phantasms in order to kill Arc. However if you think a little, Arc is not a servant so that means even if I use a ordinary black key and somehow could stop Arc from moving, once I slice of her head she is at the least temporarly dead.
If you make out of the "maby" an impossible even for the higher servants then you have wierd logic. But it's oké afterall people are free to have their own viewpoint on things.
james_marcus said: I seriously doubt the planet was going to let her die in Tsukihime, In Roa's MBAA ending, he kills her with the MEoDP and since she didn't had enough energy to revive by herself the planet brings her back at full power. The planet doesn't have a Type, so Arcueid plays that role, because she is a close copy of an Aristotle, Gaia will do everything in her power to keep her alive.
I love repeating myself
frenze said: Yes Nasu hasn't said the requirement rank of the noble phantasms in order to kill Arc. However if you think a little, Arc is not a servant so that means even if I use a ordinary black key and somehow could stop Arc from moving, once I slice of her head she is at the least temporarly dead.
Arcueid knows a lot about black keys and conceptual weapons, she is not going to fall that easily, the chance of catch her with a black key is ridiculously hard considering her speed. And even if the servant manages to cut her head, she is not temporary dead at all, which means she will cut the servant's head in the next second even without her head. Roa was able to regenerate in seconds after being reduced to just the ankles, and he could still move while regenerating, Arcueid's regeneration is a lot superior to Roa's anyway. The odds will always be in Arc's favor, except against a few oponents like Gilgamesh
Arcueid isn't just some vampire, she's perhaps tied with her sister for the most powerful True Ancestor on earth. She has the knowledge and power from the world to back up that claim as well. There is a reason she's feared among the church and 27 dead apostles.
Black keys are just weapons, without a skilled executioner they wont kill any vampire. Same with a noble phantasm. It can have all the power in the world but if the wielder can't keep up then it's likely useless. And the reason a black key can't kill a servant is only because they are spiritual beings, it has nothing to do with how powerful they are. On the other hand a set of enhanced fists can hurt a servant if on a skilled human fighter (canon).
She already had her neck sliced in Ciels route, yet she didn't even die and kept moving while her head was hanging off. And to top it off it was by the MEoDP, but even then she healed that pretty quickly. And let it be noted that wounds by the MEoDP are supposed to be unable to heal from, yet Arc did so twice.
The problem here is you are either severely underestimating Arc or severely overestimating servants. I think its the former.
Yeau sure Arc has knowlodge over every noble phantasm in world, lol you know that's ridiculous, she is only 800 years old while most servants and noble phantasm are why older than her. It is true that in the present world not many weapons can hurt Arc. But present doesn't include noble phantasms which from the past. And ofcourse there is little thing called mystery that is quite effective of killing of so called immortality. And of course what you people didn't mention those suprime healing powers that you like boast so much are only maxed out at a full moon at night. If Nasu really thought that it would be impossible for a sevant to defeat Arc, he would never given us the "maby" and just told us it was impossible. It is time that you face the music and except that Arc "can" be defeated by a servant.
Ciel said that if you want to kill Arcueid for good you need a weapon with the power to destroy the world, now, how many servants have that kind of power? I think only Gilgamesh. And is posible for other servants to kill Arc, that's true, but the odds are always in Arc's favor, her chances of win are always higher. And Arc can't die for good unless you destroy the whole world
frenze, I don't see any problem with "Arcueid is only 800 yrs old and other servants are older than her." According to your theory we atm now don't know anything about Newton's laws or Shakespeare's plays?
frenze, you do understand that the world can provide Arc with any given piece of information don't you? It's ridiculous if you think the world wouldn't have the knowledge of every noble phantasm, perhaps except Ea.
frenze said: If Nasu really thought that it would be impossible for a sevant to defeat Arc, he would never given us the "maby" and just told us it was impossible.
Nasu basically said "Arc will always be almost twice as strong as the servant she's fighting against". If that's not him saying that she will beat a given servant then I don't know what is. Nasu also hasn't said that Shinji can't kill Berserker 12 times, does that mean it's possible? Point is Nasu doesn't give straight answers, he gives out information so the answer will be there. And stop using words out of context. The "maybe" was used in a non serious way about 2 servants giving her trouble. If we're suddenly not talking about one on one anymore then how about we have Arc and Altrouge against any 2 servants? Not a pretty picture huh.
i am on the tsukihime side so ill note abilities forgotten on the tsukihime side
arc her mystic eyes disrupt reason and allow thought of only her and on nights of the full moon she is invincible
ciel her mystic eyes are only for hypnotic suggestion but she also carries seven her most formidable weapon i doubt either of these would harm a servant
akiha barbecues all she sees that's brass enough i love her
hisui wtf why is she here 0 fighting ability
kohaku same as above these two are best supporting akihas's inverse impulse form
shiki kills off the meaning what ever he cuts death is just an added effect he also has the body of a nanaya speed and agility for him too bad overuse of his eyes will render him well stupid never the less you guys give shiki not enough credit i am sure not one of the servants can stand to have their existence slaughtered not even ya man gilgamesh
shion arithmetic is only going to serve to get her killed here
yumitsuka i stopped caring about this corpse long ago didn't she die in tsukihime in arc's rout no less which is supposed to be the true one why does she continue to live
Seiichibi said: arc her mystic eyes disrupt reason and allow thought of only her and on nights of the full moon she is invincible
Invincible in meaning of no death points, physical destruction of the body is still possible, it's not like she suddenly grow's a an "armor of indistructible steel". In the novel at the final fight between Roa and Arc, she was far from invincible despite being a full moon out there... (true she was in a weakened state afterall). The arc in this doujin seems to the same arc as back then (and not the 30% one).
akiha barbecues all she sees that's brass enough i love her
Yep and I like to see what effect that could have on a astral being like a servant. Short story, dead in a blink. maby able to suprise a servant with this ability but that's it.
shiki kills off the meaning what ever he cuts death is just an added effect he also has the body of a nanaya speed and agility for him too bad overuse of his eyes will render him well stupid never the less you guys give shiki not enough credit i am sure not one of the servants can stand to have their existence slaughtered not even ya man gilgamesh
...spontaneous combustion... advice look up how mystic eyes of death perception works and look up what servants are. On top of that "silly shiki, you can't fight servants".
yumitsuka i stopped caring about this corpse long ago didn't she die in tsukihime in arc's rout no less which is supposed to be the true one why does she continue to live
There are other beings that should be already dead (not to mention the great gathering) and you question this little thing? simple answer: CROSSOVER = everything is allowed/possible
Ironicly she possibly holds the greatest advantage against servants with her reality marble "Depletion Garden". If possible I would like to see this artist take on that.
frenze said: Invincible in meaning of no death points
no death points huh? meaning it is nont possible to kill her even then was roa able to kill her aparrently not did i say roa i ment ankles because thats just what he was when this "fight" started
Yep and I like to see what effect that could have on a astral being like a servant. Short story, dead in a blink. maby able to suprise a servant with this ability but that's it
ill give it to ya here i was only talking about akiha because she is my favorite character i know damn well she would not beable to defeat any one of the servents ecept rider's sorry ass (but even that too is MY feelings getting in the way i hate rider she is so damn homely)
advice look up how mystic eyes of death perception works
"Along with the perception is the ability to trace the lines without much exertion; doing so effectively realizes the fated destruction, and the victim is cut along those lines. Because this destruction is destined, this method of injury ignores any of the victim's defenses; armor, magical protection, and so forth are useless"
There are other beings that should be already dead (not to mention the great gathering) and you question this little thing? simple answer: CROSSOVER = everything is allowed/possible
no...really that is really informative wait i knew this already wow stating opinion is a serious crime here here i do belive what i had said was "i stopped caring about this corpse long ago" that right there screams emotional attachment in this case hatred
frenze said: Invincible in meaning of no death points no death points huh? meaning it is nont possible to kill her even then was roa able to kill her aparrently not did i say roa i ment ankles because thats just what he was when this "fight" started
If something has no death points, you can still destroy it physically, it worked on the "types" so it sure would work on someone like arcueid.
On the second part, Roa managed to get Arc by suprise(with the ankles thingy), she seemingly died then, but managed to recover (she said herself) by regaining the stolen power from Roa (after shiki killed him).
That's true and all but, The Mystic Eyes of Death Perception are not infallible, Those who have accumulated an exceptionally large weight of existence, like Roa or Araya Souren, take longer to die because there is more of their existence that needs to unravel. Also, some things possess death that is too far from human perception to be understood.
I believe servants and noble phantasms definitely belong into this category.
frenze said: If something has no death points, you can still destroy it physically, it worked on the "types" so it sure would work on someone like arcueid.
On the second part, Roa managed to get Arc by suprise(with the ankles thingy), she seemingly died then, but managed to recover (she said herself) by regaining the stolen power from Roa (after shiki killed him).
No, it wouldn't. The Types can be destroyed physically as long as they aren't fighting on their own homeground, so of course this wouldn't apply to Arcueid. Besides, it was already stated by Ciel that Arcueid cannot be killed by external factors. Though since all the Types don't have the concept of death, they have no weakness as long as the battleground is earth. On the other hand even if Arcueid has no concept of death under the moon, it's still possible to force the concept of death on her by dot stabbing the earth like Shiki did on Ciel's route.
And no, Arcueid didn't die, it's pretty much impossible for Arcueid to die by anything other than a dotstab of the MEoDP. If she doesn't have enough energy to revive, the world will reboot her, and she will come back in her true form at full power, like in Roa's ending in MBAA.
Okay Im Going into the pit for the Fate Team Fate team can win using this strategy since the beggining: First to go: obviously Death glasses tohno, how? Answer: Death Flight Gae Bolg (not the same as normal one this is from a distance and unavoidable because power wave) so shiki tohno is over. Second: Roa how? Answer: Garcher UBW will end his pathetic existence Third: Curry Ciel-Sempai How? Answer:Without Roa's inmortality she is a piece of cake for berserker. Fourth:Akiha flat chest Tohno how? Answer: Ekusuu Karibaaaaa Saber noble phantasm wide range can wipe her before she gets in range for her origami Fifth: Sion Eltham Atlasia (sorry no funny name for her) How? Answer:Lancer's normal Gae Bolg Sixth:Nero Chaos How? Answer: Sakura's Shadow (ironical for nero) Seventh Eight and Ninth: Satsuki Hisui and Kohaku How answer: Assasin's Tsubame Gaeshi (kohaku may put a decent sword fight) And for last the so called invincible true ancestor How?
Answer: this one is hard but here is how first rider bellerophon (any version) add the petrification eyes (wich may not freeze her but slow her down then true assasin's zanbaniya that would probably kill her. Now it will get messy if she is revived by gaia full powered Here is Gilgamesh Ennkidu chains of heaven (Wich are as powerful as the oponent meaning arc cant escape because she is too powerful) now the fun part Rin's Jewel sword, Shirou's Nine Lives, and for delivering the final blow Full enuma elish Aiming to the sky (for not destroying the world) so bye bye archtype earth Counter measures: If arc pulls the moon down, marble phantasm or 18 disection we can use bazzet's Fragarach (wich can stop the atack and kill the oponent no matter how strong or fast is the atack like in saber vs bazzet in hollow atarxia) hence the name that wich comes after cuts first. And if arc cant be killed just dont release her From the chains of heaven or make sakura engulf her Tada!!!! Team Fate Has Won
^ Lol. Ok that made me laugh a bit, but there are some flaws. First, destroying Arc's heart with normal attacks won't do a thing if it's the full moon and probably crescent and half moon as well (after all, Roa with only a portion of Arc's power revived from just the ankles and his ankles could still move while regenerating, meaning that he didn't lost his consciousness), so destroying Arc's heart or brain during a full moon would be a small inconvenience at best. And also Enkidu only gets stronger against those with divine blood, which Arc doesn't have a speck of it. Also, Arc's trump card isn't her Marble Phantasm, but Primordial One (Ultimate One), the EX Rank (according to Extra) skill that has the ability to make her power = to her opponent + 1.
Though I agree that she'll probably lose, even at full power, if it's the entire Fate team against her.
^ So yes i realized after a while but yes she wont die that simple in fact i think the only one as powerful as she (in power) is Datk Sakura but as far as i know fragarach can stop those trump cards and bazzet has 3 of them i guess but this power level discussions are kind of absurd i did the above because they leave my fate team down i love tsukihime also but i like fate more, still i would like to see if she can escape the Angra Mainyu
The one thing I dont like about Type Moon Complex X is that the Tsukihime cast is presented in a less than positive light. They are good guys, yet they are shown as careless and selfish throughout, while the Fate cast is a lot more good. Also, the Tsukihime cast completely pwned the Fate cast. the only casualities so far were on the Fate side if I remember correctly.
@VampireHunterRene: Actually, Arcueid has way more power than Dark Sakura. The Grail's power was stated to possess around a trillion of prana, on the same level as a Counter Guardian. Meanwhile, Arc's power is the Earth itself, it was also explicitly stated that she has no limits, meaning that depending on her opponent she can take 1/3 of the Earth's power onto her body or more, without receiving any strain. And Dark Sakura's power output was only stated to be 1000, while Arc's power changes according to her opponent, but on average is still going to be way more than 1000.
Also, is unlikely that Dark Sakura could absorb her, seeing as how the average power in Arc's body is still several times greater than that of Servants. She'll probably die if she tries to absorb her.
Gilgamesh and Archer have a great number of noble ghosts with many skills eg a noble ghost vahjira can easily kill a god, and Shiki's eyes are no problem with a ranged attack, and if we talk about Archer lived many more fights because as guardian was invoked many times it is hard to think that he has never faced ancestors,and thanks to the reinforcement of he body he may not have weak points so it is immune from the eyes of shiki.
shinomori999 said: and thanks to the reinforcement of he body he may not have weak points so it is immune from the eyes of shiki.
This is pure fanwank and has no basis. The reason why Arcueid has no lines in the night is because she cannot be broken, the possibility for her to destruct is non-existent (no perceptible death exists). Archer can still die if his heart or brain are destroyed.
I am not saying that Shiki would be able to comprehend a Servant's existence, let alone cut him. But it's ridiculous to put Archer nowhere as near the same level as Arc and just because he can use crappy reinforcement.
Luck is not the only factor. But whether Lancer can manage to get an opening before Arcueid turns him into mincemeat. The thing is, if Arcueid closes in and engages him in melee combat his defeat is almost guaranteed, he'll lose just as badly as Ciel did in her route when Arcueid raised her power to a level above hers.
As far as i know Once name is cast Gae Bolg its unavoidable even if he is killed (again bazzet vs lancer Gae bolg vs fragarach double k.o *lancer is killed first but the efect of gae bolg goes and bazzet dies of the fatal blow not by the curse) of course if lancer dies the gae bolg curse is lifted and she can regenerate again, and yes the distance is important but since he can cast the death blow from far away and close that shouldnt be a problem it seems arc's luck its a D so there is no way she can escape from a far atack in agility is even with lancer because both are A
Except Lancer didn't immediately use Gae-Bolg when he fought Saber. Not just because Kotomine told him not to kill Saber, but because Gae-Bolg's true power, just like with most non-passive Noble Phantasm abilities, are ill-suited for long term battles; he needs to concentrate, gather prana, then shout it's true name to release it's power. And BTW, in the VN it's stated that one of the means to stop Gae-Bolg is to stop Lancer from using it, which Arcueid can easily do by closing the distance, and trust me, once Arc starts a melee fight Lancer's defeat is guaranteed, their stats are not even a factor here.
Also, in F/E, due to Gatou's misconceptions not only did her world back up dissapear but all her abilities dropped by two ranks, most likely her stats as well. So her Luck stats in F/E should have been B, A if her Mad Enhancement had not been ranked down from A to C.
Isn't it sad sacchin? Even though she was tagged no one has really noticed her standing there in the pic. Depletion garden would wipe out most of the Fate crew unless I have somehow misunderstood it's effect of draining and dissipating all of the mana within it's range.
.musouka said: DO you mean archetype earth? That isn't exactly recent and she currently can't use it right now.
I take it you haven't seen her story mode in the new Melty Blood? And yes, currently, Archetype Earth can come out on the surface. In her story mode, normal Arc allowed her to use the body for a whole day as she hardly gets a chance to come out. You can also see her in Roa's ending; after Roa defeats normal Arc, AE comes out and destroys him.
james_marcus said: I take it you haven't seen her story mode in the new Melty Blood? And yes, currently, Archetype Earth can come out on the surface. In her story mode, normal Arc allowed her to use the body for a whole day as she hardly gets a chance to come out. You can also see her in Roa's ending; after Roa defeats normal Arc, AE comes out and destroys him.
How does she do that with access to only around 30% of her powers? ...actually how much does she even have access to normally? I've gotten myself very confused. Neco-Arc being twice as strong as Arc yet weaker Beserker makes me even further confused.