I knew it! I took one look at Sigurd's design and all I could think was "huh. Looks like Shirou Miwa's work. Stage 1 looks like something straight out of DOGS. Wonder if he did the illustration?"
Good on him for getting the chance to work on such a character.
How the fuck does he even resemble Siegfried, Bryn?
Sigurd IS Siegfried, it's the Zeus-Jupiter thing. Same person, worshipped at a slightly different time in a slightly different location, but still 100% same person.
I dunno why Fate tries to pretend they're different though. Or not just straight up says he's another version of Siegfried, considering we already have tons of alternate version Servants.
Sigurd IS Siegfried, it's the Zeus-Jupiter thing. Same person, worshipped at a slightly different time in a slightly different location, but still 100% same person.
I dunno why Fate tries to pretend they're different though. Or not just straight up says he's another version of Siegfried, considering we already have tons of alternate version Servants.
one was romanticized in a Germanic operas, the other was actually worshiped by a society of people. that's where they diverge, It's the Elizabeth Bathory and Carmilla paradox, or the Vlad-zerker and Vlad-lancer paradox, one is the "actual" person modified via popular perception, the other is a dramatized version recorded through literary convention.
one was romanticized in a Germanic operas, the other was actually worshiped by a society of people. that's where they diverge, It's the Elizabeth Bathory and Carmilla paradox, or the Vlad-zerker and Vlad-lancer paradox, one is the "actual" person modified via popular perception, the other is a dramatized version recorded through literary convention.
What I don't buy though, is when they use that explanation, both are equally inaccurate to any versions of the character.
Take Charlemagne VS Karl der Grosse for example, Charlemagne was supposed to be the fictionalized version of the real Charles the Great in the Matter of France, so he can have floaty magic swords, which doesn't even exist in Matter of France the fantasy itself.
So in that case Karl der Grosse was supposed to be the historical person, that means the latter should be more grounded right? lolno let's give him gorilla arms and a giant robot that shoot lasers.
What I don't buy though, is when they use that explanation, both are equally inaccurate to any versions of the character.
Take Charlemagne VS Karl der Grosse for example, Charlemagne was supposed to be the fictionalized version of the real Charles the Great in the Matter of France, so he can have floaty magic swords, which doesn't even exist in Matter of France the fantasy itself.
So in that case Karl der Grosse was supposed to be the historical person, that means the latter should be more grounded right? lolno let's give him gorilla arms and a giant robot that shoot lasers.
gah, accidental downvote.
anyway, all of that can be read as interpretation on the artist and writers. As said, Servants and their exploits are modified by way of literary and artistic convention. Also, seriously, they look pretty cool.
anyway, all of that can be read as interpretation on the artist and writers. As said, Servants and their exploits are modified by way of literary and artistic convention. Also, seriously, they look pretty cool.
Making Excalibur's famous radiant light into a beam is an "interpretation".
Making Alexander's army into his eternal companions who will fight alongside him even in death is an "interpretation".
Making Lancelot able to wield any weapons perfectly because he could defeat enemy knights with a stick is an "interpretation".
Making Gae Bolg's ability to grow barbs throughout your bloodstream into a reverse causality OHKO move is convoluted but is an "interpretation".
Making Ramesses' chariot into a sun boat of Ra is quite a stretch but is still an "interpretation".
Making a historical man's authority into a giant beam robot is not.
azurelorochi said: Making a historical man's authority into a giant beam robot is not.
It's his religious authority. CONFORM OR BE ANNIHILATED BY THE POWER OF GOD. God just so happened to be a massive church robot that looks like Karl. Also the age of the servant and the amount of time their stories take to naturally mutate over generations of retelling can change things dramatically. Christianity for example has been an ultra rigid conform or annihilation (seriously, they killed a shit ton of people who weren't christian, or even *knew* about the religion) so the crystallization of his authority as ruler of the holy roman empire would have to be a robot due to muh symbolizm.
In that case I could summon Gandhi, says his immovable resolve combined with Civ memes make his NP in to nuke robots.
Or I could summon Khrushchev, says his involvement in the Cold War make his NP into an ICE nuke robots.
Or I could summon Isaac Newton and says gravity is an absolute law of the universe, ergo rigid law, therefore giant gravity robot.
Or I could summon Saladin and says if Christianity has a giant beam robot, Islam should also have their own giant beam robot.
Yeah no. You can always find a way to arbitrarily draw random connections, but there is so far before "interpretation" becomes "bullshit".
Obviously not everything is robots azure. I find most of your rambling nonsense funny but this is just absurd, even for you. We get it, you seem to be unable to accept most of the fate series since you, for some reason, are overly literal, it doesn't mean you *need* to complain over everything.
Obviously not everything is robots azure. I find most of your rambling nonsense funny but this is just absurd, even for you. We get it, you seem to be unable to accept most of the fate series since you, for some reason, are overly literal, it doesn't mean you *need* to complain over everything.
Point I'm saying is when I bullshit things to give everyone robots, you can see and call it bullshit for what it is. When Typemoon does it, everyone just nods and goes "oh that make sense".
I'm saying there is a very obvious line between "interpretation trying to be faithful to the source material" and "we don't care, we make random OCs and attach random names we saw on Wikipedia to it".
I don't know about you, maybe I'm elitist, but I want my Fate writers to KNOW what they're writing, and fans to be willing to learn from what they wrote. If your science literacy is only at an elementary school level, you should not be a scifi writer. Michael Bay-ing stuffs does not equate scifi writing.
And I know you've seen my rant a millionth time so I apologize and will stop here because all things considered, Sigurd is an acceptable "interpretation" so this isn't the place for said rant any further.
a very well argued perspective on anime and the trend of "cool over substance."
A very respectable opinion and while I agree with a lot of what you're saying with how writers take easy access shortcuts, the fact they will still pay at least lip service to the origins of a certain historical or mythological figure can still make someone look into them.
Hell, F/GO's weird ass interpretation of *Nightingale*, of all characters, got me to go check her article out on Wikipedia to see just how much of her was true and how much more was just stupid fluff to justify her as a berserker. When I saw Karl's image wada drew, I again went to the wiki to look him up too.
Interpretations can be more grounded in their mythology or historical information yes, and they could tone down some of the silly fan service (like Jack, and Abigail) true, but yes, sex and radical effects really do sell these sorts of games.
When you get into works of fiction, the author is allowed to get away with anything as long as it's plausible (or absurd) enough.
I think the point is, some things strain credulity past the breaking point for some people, and the argument is just about how that breaking point is different for different people.
I mean, I just got really annoyed at tall goatee party guy Napoleon a week or so ago...
cd_young said:
It's his religious authority. CONFORM OR BE ANNIHILATED BY THE POWER OF GOD. God just so happened to be a massive church robot that looks like Karl. Also the age of the servant and the amount of time their stories take to naturally mutate over generations of retelling can change things dramatically. Christianity for example has been an ultra rigid conform or annihilation (seriously, they killed a shit ton of people who weren't christian, or even *knew* about the religion) so the crystallization of his authority as ruler of the holy roman empire would have to be a robot due to muh symbolizm.
OK, so why is Karl de Grosse the ONE character who somehow represents the willingness of the Catholic Church to kill in the name of evangelism? I mean, if we're talking about the real person, wouldn't his actual historical significance be the Great Schism, and being the final, official tearing of the Christian Church in two (well, there already were the Miaphysites, but the Orthodox and Catholics are the ones peopel care about), due to the increasing split between the Roman and Greek cultures branches of the former Roman Empire Christian world? He was mostly a warlord who was successful enough to gather together an empire by fighting OTHER Christians, notably including killing his little brother to steal his lands, as well as marrying and then divorcing for power. Like, hell, you can make him an assassin with that material...
It's not like Karl de Grosse was an actual crusader. There were PLENTY of other major historical figures who were actual crusaders who actually went around killing people explicitly for the purpose of taking lands away from other faiths, especially Islam. Even if you don't want to make a new character just for the Reconquista or a Pope Urban servant, you can make someone who's actually associated with religious warfare into that character, like, say, Jeanne d'Arc? Why doesn't Jeanne d'Arc get a giant robot pope to shoot "Holy Spirit" laser beams at the Protestant heretics?
It's just "he tried to convert a conquered people to his religion using force - a TOTALLY UNIQUE EVENT IN HISTORY - therefore, he has to have MASSIVE CHRISTIANITY LAZORS!"
So, yeah, why does only he get religion lasers? Why not a Tokugawa Shogun firing Buddism Lasers - probably with an explanation that all shoguns ever were always actually little girls, and she'll look like Reimu?
This is kind of the reason that Magic A is Magic A is a trope. In a vampire story, one of the first things they do is set the rules for whether garlic or crucifixes work on this world's vampires because you need to actually nail these things down so readers can set their expectations and the dramatic tension can work. Fate just doesn't do this, and creates deus ex machina characters every five minutes until there's no way to make sense of anything. Fate plays WAY too fast and loose with its rules to the point that everyone seems to have their own entirely unique laws of the physics of magic that only apply to them. Apparently, one vampire gets burned by garlic, but another just doesn't like the smell, and another loves roasting garlic and smearing it all over his bread, but he's a hemophiliac, and you can never figure out which is which without sitting through a 12-page dissertation on all the metaphysical bullshit that applies ONLY to this ONE character, alone, and which will never inform anything else that will ever happen in the rest of this world.
This kind of "everybody gets their own chuunibyou 20-page backstory you have to read to understand who they are even though the whole point of using historical characters is that they are supposed to be familiar" is the EXACT reason I have never been able to stand Fate past Stay/Night.
so many things, 99% of it being good civilization.
The thing being, is that Nasu and type-moon let their artists make the servants, then they are forced to try and translate it into their rules. Look at the old apocrypha MMO attempt, every single servant in that project were made by their artists, complete with their stats, skills and noble phantasms. Nasu and type-moon have some creative control in the process, but by and large they need to translate fanfiction into actual Canon.
So Karl de Grosse's authority as the emperor of the holy roman empire being translated into a Massive church robot that looks like him, can fire church missiles, holy cross lasers and have the ability to brainwash people who agree with his objective of making a utopia into his allies, was probably made up by Wada Akuro herself and the team had to translate, a probably sillier concept of it into what we get in Extella Link.
Why not have it be whoever founded the Knights Templar? Considering all the weird conspiracy shit they got wrapped up in and how they are basically the origin of "armored man who is dogmatic and aggressive" in pop-culture.
Was it De Sable who got beheaded by Saladin for being a dick?
First off, I did say I'll stop tainting this image with non-Sigurd related talk, but I guess I dug this hole too deep. Sorry about that.
Again, I know modern Fate has different people making different characters, but so does KanColle and almost every other phone games out there, so all of them are extremely vulnerable to having "too many cooks so the food tasted all over the goddamn place".
But this isn't entirely modern Fate's fault, Nasu has full control on Extra, Extra CCC, and Ataraxia, and those characters still fall very much into the pitfall of "this character has 10 pages of mechanics applying specifically to them and no one else".
Which is why I would say Urobuchi is the most consistent and best Fate writer. Are tall Alexander or Lovecraftian Gilles de Rais accurate? Hell no, but they convey what the audience are supposed to feel about the actual Alexander the Great and Bluebeard, the sense of grandeur and the sense of moral depravity they oozes. They are not accurate, but they are clearly conveying the message that they are supposed to be that historical character and sometimes due to changes in the times, inaccuracies might help make that easier to digest that feeling than an otherwise shorter Alexander the Great.
Modern Fate doesn't have that. Characters like Altera or Raikou are not "supposed" to be Attila or Yorimoto, they are not trying to invoke a feeling of how you should feel about Attila or Yorimoto. Like many other modern Servants, they are just fap fodders to appease to the otakus because as you say, they have the loosest wallets.
For one thing, it kills the uniqueness each character has, 50% of male servants have the exact same face now for the sake of appealing to fujoshis, for example. Or even when that isn't the case, much like Karl der Grosse, it's now so overblown that again, it very much falls into the "I just attached a name I found on Wikipedia to this random OC, I never actually read the article. Nobody will care as long as they have explosions!"
But another thing I've learned is that the more you tried to appeal to someone's dick or vagina, the less prone they are willing to use their brain in return. Which works against both the intellectual value every Servants are supposed to hold, but at the same time works against whatever convoluted background Typemoon is trying to sell on that character because now their "target demographics" just doesn't give a shit.
Many modern Servants are as accurate to their origin source as Edward Cullen is to the vampire legends, all because the idiots find that sexy. So how else am I supposed to feel when the largest "educational" anime franchise now act like that?
Does that mean I think all FGO fans are dumb? No, there's a lot of people who does care for intellectualism, but it's just sad that far more fans and a huge chunk of the creators are a far cry from that.
Nasu could and should check through all Servants his employees, both the designers and writers submit and make sure they are all consistent. But again, I'm asking too much from a man who himself, has this fetish for making things as convoluted as possible.
You may argue "Fate is selling more than ever, so if anything this is better than the Urobuchi era!" but again, so did Twilight and Bayformers films.
And it's not like "sex sells" is a good business model either. I believe fanservices are pretty much only good for clickbait. It draws a lot of attention that the people come, they fap, and then they left, forgetting your anime/game forever. And when so many other animes and games are already trying to capitalize on that, why did Fate had to sacrifice what made it truly unique for the sake of this crappy business tactic?
It's not only "style over substance", it's "bad style over the substance you used to have".
Again, your argument is fairly on point and well said, and again, I agree with a lot of the points you bring up. Modern fate, outside of the internal type-moon made servants, are all pretty much kitch and fodder. Some of them are interesting, but handled poorly, like Boudica, Tamamo cat and Darius III, or are overhyped but 1 dimensional, like all the limited 5*s that are not scathach or brynhildr.
Again, your argument is fairly on point and well said, and again, I agree with a lot of the points you bring up. Modern fate, outside of the internal type-moon made servants, are all pretty much kitch and fodder. Some of them are interesting, but handled poorly, like Boudica, Tamamo cat and Darius III, or are overhyped but 1 dimensional, like all the limited 5*s that are not scathach or brynhildr.
Recently, the limited 5 stars have been the antagonists of their story chapter or the star ally/antagonist of the Events, so I wouldn't call them one dimensional.
it's possible the glasses are an NP based on the heart.
Sort of. The glasses are a Magic Tool. They're the crystal form of the heart's wisdom, so anyone who puts them on excepting Sigurd goes mad from knowledge overload.