Nightingale is summoned as a berserker (hilariously). The reason why is (admittedly flimsily) that since she more or less ignored everyone and didn't listen to anyone when trying to save people. According to her background in game: "If it is for the sake of saving lives, there is no problem in losing lives-- such excessively pure belief and terrific posture would probably even be evaluated as 「madness and horror」 at times. Therefore, she was given the Class Berserker. She may be reluctant about it.. no, if it would save people, she would not mind at all."
Yeah. She does have a bit of a running gag of resorting to amputation really fast (19th century medicine and all that) or using violence to stop more violence.
It just usually involves bigger problems than a kid getting bruised in a brawl, but hey, wild exaggeration is a staple of comedy.
She's a Berserker because she's extremely narrow-minded and blindly focused on saving lives- no matter what she has to do to make that happen.
Grisoni said:
Yeah. She does have a bit of a running gag of resorting to amputation really fast (19th century medicine and all that) or using violence to stop more violence.
It just usually involves bigger problems than a kid getting bruised in a brawl, but hey, wild exaggeration is a staple of comedy.
Huh. That's kind of unfortunate. She really pioneered a lot of medical techniques still in use today and wasn't some lopper happy amputater. Just kind of makes me feel the creators are disrespecting her some.
Huh. That's kind of unfortunate. She really pioneered a lot of medical techniques still in use today and wasn't some lopper happy amputater. Just kind of makes me feel the creators are disrespecting her some.
Huh. That's kind of unfortunate. She really pioneered a lot of medical techniques still in use today and wasn't some lopper happy amputater. Just kind of makes me feel the creators are disrespecting her some.
I can't help but feel that Berserker isn't really the ideal class for her, but is unfortunately the only one she can "qualify" for. The Berserker class was made for summoning weak Servants so you could boost them with Mad Enhancement and it can technically be applied to anyone as long as you add a special line to the summoning chant like Kariya was instructed to do when he summoned Lancelot.
Unfortunately she doesn't really fit into the Caster class, even with them stretching it to include artists and writers, and all of the other classes are right out (not even Ruler fits her, since Rulers aren't supposed to have wish for the Grail, and she'd probably want it to heal people all over the world). If she could just be summoned in one of the other classes she'd probably be far more reasonable.
Feels like a waste from a gameplay perspective too since she's a pretty crappy Servant overall despite having surprisingly high stats.
I can't help but feel that Berserker isn't really the ideal class for her, but is unfortunately the only one she can "qualify" for. The Berserker class was made for summoning weak Servants so you could boost them with Mad Enhancement and it can technically be applied to anyone as long as you add a special line to the summoning chant like Kariya was instructed to do when he summoned Lancelot.
Unfortunately she doesn't really fit into the Caster class, even with them stretching it to include artists and writers, and all of the other classes are right out (not even Ruler fits her, since Rulers aren't supposed to have wish for the Grail, and she'd probably want it to heal people all over the world). If she could just be summoned in one of the other classes she'd probably be far more reasonable.
Feels like a waste from a gameplay perspective too since she's a pretty crappy Servant overall despite having surprisingly high stats.
Actually, Nightingale is a lot better now that a lot more Buster Servants have been introduced. She requires a bit more babying than other support Servants, for sure, but her heals are very strong, her Buster up skill is also strong, and her anti-humanoid skill is very good against other Servants.
She's far from the worst 5 star in the game, actually rated around mid-high tier.
Also, I feel that people are misunderstanding some things about how the game portrays Nightingale. The real Nightingale did in fact save a lot of lives- but a lot of it was due to better sanitation policies. She was still limited by the medical knowledge at the time.
The reason she is a Berserker is that it's true she wouldn't fit into any other class, and Berserkers' Mad Enhancement can take forms of obsession: case in point, Kiyohime whose Mad Enhancement makes her believe that the protagonist is the reincarnation of her love and nothing will change that. Nightingale is similar: She obsessed over saving lives, so Mad Enhancement changed that to regarding saving lives as her most important objective, no matter the cost. For example, in the America chapter of the story, she saved Rama who had been cursed by Cu Alter's Gae Bolg in his heart, and to save him she considered amputation because her reasoning was that without his limbs it would relieve the strain of his heart having to pump blood to the unnecessary parts of his body (and also because well, he was cursed and she doesn't know how to heal that so that was her last resort). Similarly, as she carried Rama to safety through a battlefield, she ran headlong into danger while carrying him to save the lives of those other people on the battlefield. In that sense, she's very focused and very dangerous, but she regards human life above all else.
In my opinion, I thought that putting her into the game with that characterization was pretty interesting. Although fan works like to over exaggerate her tendencies...
Yes. She even carried around another Servant on her back (like in this comic) for a large section of the America chapter, including parts where she could be fielded in combat.
Huh. That's kind of unfortunate. She really pioneered a lot of medical techniques still in use today and wasn't some lopper happy amputater. Just kind of makes me feel the creators are disrespecting her some.
She quickly updates her medical knowledge when provided by Chaldea. And when she resorted to amputation it was legitimate (Rama had a literally exploded heart, no way it was gonna be able to pump blood to his limbs). She's also skilled with words and with a great understanding of people.
Nightingale was a brilliant statistician, which was what allowed her to improve medical practices and save lives. She was also the first female member of the Royal Statistical Society.
Seriously, she has far more claim to be a caster than plagiarist supreme and dirty businessman Edison Lion ever did.
The only reason why Nightingale has any business being a Berserker is her bipolar disorder, made worse by her demanding work schedule. Even then, treating her like a Crimean War nut with a fetish for amputations and sterilization is, to be honest, an enormous travesty and total mockery to the legacy of such a brilliant and tireless scientist, mathematician, nurse and social worker as her.
Not that I expect anything better from FGO. Shitting on other people's legacies is what they do best now.
Nightingale was a brilliant statistician, which was what allowed her to improve medical practices and save lives. She was also the first female member of the Royal Statistical Society.
Seriously, she has far more claim to be a caster than plagiarist supreme and dirty businessman Edison Lion ever did.
The only reason why Nightingale has any business being a Berserker is her bipolar disorder, made worse by her demanding work schedule. Even then, treating her like a Crimean War nut with a fetish for amputations and sterilization is, to be honest, an enormous travesty and total mockery to the legacy of such a brilliant and tireless scientist, mathematician, nurse and social worker as her.
Not that I expect anything better from FGO. Shitting on other people's legacies is what they do best now.
I think you're overreacting a tad bit (and possibly having a bit of your personal bias thrown in).
There is some evidence that she could be a Caster with statistics, but considering that all Casters so far in the Nasuverse have been either actual magicians, writers, philosophers or scientists with ties to the occult or alchemy, or inventors, it's a bit harder to classify Nightingale as a Caster. Casters "make" things in the Nasuverse, whether it be actual magic or items/literature.
Also you have to remember that the only reason she's portrayed as super OCD and all amputation/sterilization happy is because of the Berserker class's Mad Enhancement. It's most likely that without the class's passive, she'd be a lot more normal. As stated in her profile,
Because in the present manifestation she is in a condition in which her mentality is combined with an EX Mad Enhancement Skill, unlike how she was in life (probably), 「she does not listen to people at all」.
And again, the amputation thing was because it was the last resort to save Rama's life in the America chapter because seriously, he had an imploded heart from a curse, how are you gonna save someone like that with just medical practice? And the sterilization thing is also because again, that was one of the biggest contributions she made to medical society, better sanitation policies in medical facilities. A lot of fanworks tend to over exaggerate these qualities of her character for comedy.
The focus on the Crimean War may be because otherwise, she as a character would be kind of bland. IMO, having her as a Servant summoned from her time in the War and having the horrors of having to be a wartime medical worker surrounded by death is an interesting portrayal.
And besides, her profile does mention her other deeds:
With unsanitary conditions caused by a lack of understanding of medical treatment and nursing and many antiquated regulations running rampant, she roused herself in conducting a reform of the wartime medical treatment that had turned into a hellish aspect. Although 「the mortality rate of the wartime clinic skyrocketed」 for a time, she continued her work and thoroughly enforced sanitary health and proper nursing, and gathered materials by throwing away private funds with no regret, leading to success. She managed to curb a mortality rate that was close to 40% to a mere 5%.
The soldiers said. 「I saw an angel」.
Every newspaper of London extolled that she was indeed a true angel who had flied down on the battlefield. The people were crazy about that woman-hero that had appeared in the Queen's age. There was many applause --however, she did not smile. Not an angel. Just, only saving people.
She continued to work, undertaking a major reform of wartime medical treatment and military health. Bringing in even Queen Victoria as an ally, she promoted her reforms. The deed of promoting analysis of medical records for the sake of those reforms, she is also known as the forerunner of statistics studies.
Sure she could be a Caster with some liberal interpretation, but she'd be far less interesting (plus FGO has waaaay too many Casters atm). I can accept FGO's interpretation of their characters as long as it makes things interesting. And as Nightingale is undoubtedly portrayed as a heroic character with focus on her real life version's good points, I'd say it's a fine imagining of her as a character. Plus, well, she's really damn good in the game, lol.
If it is for the sake of saving lives, there is no problem in losing lives-- such excessively pure belief and terrific posture would probably even be evaluated as 「madness and horror」 at times. Therefore, she was given the Class Berserker. She may be reluctant about it.. no, if it would save people, she would not mind at all.
Nightingale was a brilliant statistician, which was what allowed her to improve medical practices and save lives. She was also the first female member of the Royal Statistical Society.
The only reason why Nightingale has any business being a Berserker is her bipolar disorder, made worse by her demanding work schedule. Even then, treating her like a Crimean War nut with a fetish for amputations and sterilization is, to be honest, an enormous travesty and total mockery to the legacy of such a brilliant and tireless scientist, mathematician, nurse and social worker as her.
Not that I expect anything better from FGO. Shitting on other people's legacies is what they do best now.
To me this is like complaining about Abe Lincoln: Vampire Hunter being insulting to his legacy or something, which maybe if it tried to sell itself as a documentary it would be, but not EVERY portrayal of a historic figure in FICTION must be super serial. Really having silly or exaggerated versions can be more interesting or fun, if you want to learn about what they really did go read a history book. Complaining that a setting that runs on rule of cool with a sprinkling of history where it aids said cool isn't providing a nuanced and historically accurate portrayal of a historic figure is pretty stupid, it never CLAIMED to be doing so.
Seriously, she has far more claim to be a caster than plagiarist supreme and dirty businessman Edison Lion ever did.
And speaking of shiting on legacies... this is tens TIMES as insulting as anything in the game. I know it's become quite fashionable in the last decade or two to act like Edison was somehow a fraud, but that's as much bullshit the other way as earlier claims he invented everything. Edison had his flaws, but he had his virtues too and too act like he wasn't an intelligent man (and also socially aware enough to be able to run teams and businesses) is nonsense. Really for all he's been turned into the patron of the nerd culture in the last few years Tesla was a extremely flawed man who brought many of his failures and problems on himself via those flaws and whose achievements have arguably become as unthinkingly parroted and exaggerated by his ardent and Edison's own once where.
At least FGO plays it fair by having him be not an inventor, but someone that deals with inventors and makes products out of inventions. Unlike Tesla or Da Vinci, he doesn't have Natural Born Genius, but instead gets Mass Production and Concept Improvement as skills. He's portrayed as a hard-working, kind of obsessive (lion) man who is all about INDUSTRY AND DOMINATION.
Which is fine, it highlights his best points without misrepresenting his history.
To me this is like complaining about Abe Lincoln: Vampire Hunter being insulting to his legacy or something, which maybe if it tried to sell itself as a documentary it would be, but not EVERY portrayal of a historic figure in FICTION must be super serial. Really having silly or exaggerated versions can be more interesting or fun, if you want to learn about what they really did go read a history book. Complaining that a setting that runs on rule of cool with a sprinkling of history where it aids said cool isn't providing a nuanced and historically accurate portrayal of a historic figure is pretty stupid, it never CLAIMED to be doing so.
To me, it's one thing to say "hmm, we have looked this up, and we might as well twist some of the facts just to make it cooler or have more fun with it". It's what Nasu had done from since day one with Arthur and Medusa.
So even if Edison had basically became the go-to "oh look how Fate had fallen" icon at this point, he's still a more forgivable character in my opinion. It makes as much sense as Gilles de Rais being related to Lovecraftian monsters.
It's another thing completely to design a near naked woman, then plaster some random historical/mythical name to her just for the sake of keeping with the franchise's theme. Double goes for character who seems like they're created by people who didn't even bother to read more than a single paragraph on Wikipedia(Attila, Jack the Ripper, Bathory, etc) It's insulting to both the original figure's legacy and to this franchise's own legacy.
(Just so we can be clear, genderswapping great men doesn't make good female characters or promote gender equality or any of that BS, it's just idiots deliberately being idiots for the sake of some cheap arousal.)
azurelorochi said: *Snip*, Jack the Ripper, *snip*
While I admit Jack's outfit is out and out silly for a 16 year old girl from old London, you also have to remember that there is *literally* no information about the Real Jack the Ripper. None, zero, zilch, there are dozens of theories, but since it was so long ago, there is no evidence left to make any conclusions.
So, they invented their own Jack the Ripper, a curse made flesh that murdered women who rejected her. And was then captured and scarified by Magus. In fact I still don't think Loli Jack is still the real Jack the ripper, but just a wraith of a young woman with amazing magus potential (her Mist NP was instinctual bounded field magecraft, which is almost impossible) who killed prostitutes due to being mentally unstable and had just enough in common with the myths and legend of Saucy Jack to act as a psudo servant, Like Kojiro, but not made of three separate swordsmen.
While I admit Jack's outfit is out and out silly for a 16 year old girl from old London, you also have to remember that there is *literally* no information about the Real Jack the Ripper. None, zero, zilch, there are dozens of theories, but since it was so long ago, there is no evidence left to make any conclusions.
Except the "canon" so far(as much as there being multiple Vlads and Jacks is concerned), is that this little lady bitch in her thong is the literal, real deal murderer of Whitechapel.
Jack the Ripper, at the very bare minimum, is confirmed to be a person with deep knowledge of the human anatomy and experiences with real surgery, hence doctors and butchers being the primary suspects.
But then Fate just goes, "eh, she's a loli, she can do whatever the fuck she wants". It's extra dumb when they try to justify her cold blooded murder with "she is cute and lonely, ergo all gets free tickets to kill as many innocent people because it eases her loneliness". Double attempted justifications for dumb logic.
It speaks volume how this entire character is solely centered on the concept of "this franchise needs a loli who shows off her butt".
If they came out with an explanation later that she isn't just "Ms. oh poor little orphan girl with some knives", then I'll apologize. Until then, I'll continue to call her the 2nd worst characters this franchise had ever churned out.
In all honesty, I don't even know why Jack the Ripper is iconic. There's far more historical serial murderers with higher body counts and better gimmicks.
azurelorochi said: *Azurelorochri's opinion, which is just as valid as anyone elses.*
It's not so much Saucy Jack him/herself, so much as the sheer mystery. There is nothing known about this serial killer aside from a letter and a message scrawled on a wall about them.
And I still maintain she's a legacy Jack, a nameless murderer of prostitues who filled enough boxes in the Mystery of Jack the Ripper to be summoned as "Assassin Class Jack the Ripper."
But I will agree that making her like this to fill out a requisite "Loli character" is idiotic. Even though she's technically supposed to be about 16.
cd_young said: But I will agree that making her like this to fill out a requisite "Loli character" is idiotic. Even though she's technically supposed to be about 16.
Just because she's 16 doesn't mean she can't be "Short". I look at Taiga and Louise or Shauna for example and those girls are supposed to be of High School age but don't have super model body's like the other girls in their respective series.
Hell, Negima does this too with Fuuka and Fukima twins that are actually older than Chizuru who has a super model body compared to the "Loli" twins. In fact the twins are supposed to be among the oldest of the class and Chizuru one of the younger ones.
Just because she's 16 doesn't mean she can't be "Short". I look at Taiga and Louise or Shauna for example and those girls are supposed to be of High School age but don't have super model body's like the other girls in their respective series.
Hell, Negima does this too with Fuuka and Fukima twins that are actually older than Chizuru who has a super model body compared to the "Loli" twins. In fact the twins are supposed to be among the oldest of the class and Chizuru one of the younger ones.
I have this weird personal bias towards what a person should look like at a given age. Mostly when it relates to how overdeveloped or underdeveloped a character is depicted at a given age they're addressed as. Like some of the pokemon wing girls who are all depicted as about ten, or the aforementioned shortanks
cd_young said: I have this weird personal bias towards what a person should look like at a given age. Mostly when it relates to how overdeveloped or underdeveloped a character is depicted at a given age they're addressed as. Like some of the pokemon wing girls who are all depicted as about ten, or the aforementioned shortanks
You'll have a "Fun time" meeting me and my sister. I'm 30 years old but I look like I'm only 16. Hell I still get carded wherever I go. I've even had Security officers ask me "Boy, are you lost? Where are your parents?" Hell my "hot aunt" is well into her 40s and she only looks 20(no she never had surgery). Hell her son is in highschool and he still looks like he's 8 years old(okay maybe 12 years old).
Just because she's 16 doesn't mean she can't be "Short". I look at Taiga and Louise or Shauna for example and those girls are supposed to be of High School age but don't have super model body's like the other girls in their respective series.
Hell, Negima does this too with Fuuka and Fukima twins that are actually older than Chizuru who has a super model body compared to the "Loli" twins. In fact the twins are supposed to be among the oldest of the class and Chizuru one of the younger ones.
IIRC the reason for 'Jackie' to be so petite for her age was malnutrition in her life (very plausible considering her backstory as a child who had to fend for herself in a rather unkind era)
It's not so much Saucy Jack him/herself, so much as the sheer mystery. There is nothing known about this serial killer aside from a letter and a message scrawled on a wall about them.
Hence why I worded that she is the "murderer of Whitechapel", which, in reality, could or could not be the same person who sent the letters.
The bodies were identified to have their organs masterfully removed. That's a real world fact concerning this specific murderer. The identity of the murderer being a mystery doesn't mean autopsies are also a mystery.
In other words, the victims could never be killed by some random orphan girl with absolute zero training.
The "mystery" part of Jack the Ripper's identity was simply used as a convenient handwave to depict him as a loli, and it's stupid. If they say she's a loli who's a daughter of a surgeon or a butcher, then I'd buy it, not random "oh I miss my mom so much please die" pipsqueak like this.
Hence why I worded that she is the "murderer of Whitechapel", which, in reality, could or could not be the same person who sent the letters.
The bodies were identified to have their organs masterfully removed. That's a real world fact concerning this specific murderer. The identity of the murderer being a mystery doesn't mean autopsies are also a mystery.
In other words, the victims could never be killed by some random orphan girl with absolute zero training.
The "mystery" part of Jack the Ripper's identity was simply used as a convenient handwave to depict him as a loli, and it's stupid. If they say she's a loli who's a daughter of a surgeon or a butcher, then I'd buy it, not random "oh I miss my mom so much please die" pipsqueak like this.
From what i read here, from an outsider point of view, it is indeed quite stupid reason and would give you the idea of the character being there for a token character.
First off, you have to remember that Jack, at least was not designed by TM, but someone outside of TM for when they were making their now-turned-into-FGO online game. So that's how the design turned out.
Also, there is nowhere that states that this Jack the Ripper is the "true" Jack. Even she doesn't know if she's the true JTR or not. Which falls in line with another Jack being able to be summoned in Fate/Strange Fake, who in there is a male and is depicted as a shadowy being who also has no idea who he is. In the Nasuverse, it's possible that "Jack the Ripper" is nothing but a concept and this concept can be summoned in various ways. In loli Jack's case, it was summoned as a grudge of thousands of unborn/aborted children borne by prostitutes.
So in this sense, loli Jack was less a "person" and more a "grudge." So it makes more sense she would be able to kill people as she's basically a curse. She would have the skills needed for dissection and knowledge of anatomy because she's formed from children who died in the womb (formed from inside the human body, thus knowledge of the human body, I can see the connection) and she even has a personal skill in Surgical Procedure (E) to reflect this. She killed people by coming and going with the mist, which is also reflected in her NP Maria the Ripper, which can only be activated with mist as one of the conditions (thus again showing that she is more a curse/grudge than an actual human). As for the idea that no one knew who did the murders, it's reflected in her other skill Information Erasure (B) which, according to Fate/Complete material, "removes any records or memories of her true name, abilities, or appearance following the conclusion of an engagement. It not only targets witnesses of the her fights, but also the opponent and even digital recordings by a closed-circuit camera in broad daylight will be changed. Physical evidence of the engagement is not altered in any way, and her identity may be revealed through logical deduction." Which furthers the notion she is more curse/grudge than person.
Also, in the novel/FGO, she is depicted as referring to herself as "we" so she sees herself less as an individual and more again the aggregate grudge of thousands of children.
It's also a consideration that she's depicted as a child because it was easier to gain the attention of prostitutes that way (or so "she" thought). After all, as a grudge of children who wished to be with their mothers, what easier way than to act a child and try to get close to the prostitutes who hung out at night? But when spurned since hookers have no time for kids, she'd fade into the mist and kill them. Also her inappropriate dress may be a nod to well, hookers, just instead of Victorian era sexy style it was updated to more modern standards. At least in the novel, when it depicted her (possibly) in the Victorian era, she looked like a street urchin with ragged clothes rather than her sensational wear of now.
So while a lot of people tout that this loli Jack was nothing more than a need to put in a loli character (which was already done with Nursery Rhyme really) there's actually a lot more thought than that put into the character. I'm fine with her because she's not even the "true" Jack the Ripper (and nothing says she is either) but rather a possible interpretation of the legendary serial killer with some well reasoned backstory. If they made it so that loli Jack was actually the true JTR, then I'd be angry. But the Nasuverse runs on "interesting interpretations of historical/legendary/mythical figures" so to me, as long as it's interesting, I can dig it.
Like making Edison into Leomon.
KyteM said:
At least FGO plays it fair by having him be not an inventor, but someone that deals with inventors and makes products out of inventions. Unlike Tesla or Da Vinci, he doesn't have Natural Born Genius, but instead gets Mass Production and Concept Improvement as skills. He's portrayed as a hard-working, kind of obsessive (lion) man who is all about INDUSTRY AND DOMINATION.
Which is fine, it highlights his best points without misrepresenting his history.
See, this is why I think people just focus on appearances rather than looking more closely at the lore. Sure, EDISON WITH LION HEAD is striking but if you look at how he's designed, with, as KyteM says, focus on his business aspects and his motto of INDUSTRY AND DOMINATION (even reflected in his NP which basically emulates Hollywood) it shows that the creators had fun with a character while still showing off what was important about the historical figure. Heck, even the lion head makes sense because it's copied from the MGM lion! Fitting for a character related to the mass production of machines that allowed "recordings" of things like sound and motion picture.
The people who make Servants more often than not have reasons why they make the interpretations of the characters as they are. Just gotta have more of an open mind and look more closely at the material rather than at face value.
1) It doesn't matter who designed it. She was meant to be a character meant to be seriously put in an official project of the franchise. The fact that said project was cancelled did nothing to alleviate that TM did approved of this designed. Doubled when this design is still used in other official works anyway.
2) All points concerning curses were published 2 full years after the character design had been released. So I will respectfully disagree that these were all the concepts thought of from the beginning.
If she is really meant to be a curse from day 1, wouldn't you think they should advertise her exactly as that from the beginning? Or make her something like Strange Fake's Pale Rider as in something clearly more conceptual just for the sake of not inviting misunderstandings?
3) The fact that Nursery Rhyme or Ilya existed doesn't mean the "niche" is filled and no other characters were designed to ever fill that spot again. How many other lolis are there in FGO? How many of them had no businesses being loli?(Mary Read's entire pirate career was in her late 20s, Blavatsky also started her spiritualism career in her 40s, etc)
Loli-jack's design isn't a result of well constructed character(because she WOULD have a character if she is), but she's just a lolicon appeasing bait. I will repeat that the fact that the story completely, unironically lampshades how it is perfectly okay for her to kill innocents to ease her own loneliness being the perfect example to how this character represents the "可愛いは正義/cute is justice" otaku mindset. That moe justifies absolutely every thing, even if it defies basic human common sense.
I would agree more if not for the fact that ever since Extra, Fate had been far much more interested in keeping up with the newest anime archetype trend(traps, idols, gigantic oversized boobs, etc) than they do keeping with good accuracy. FSN and Fzero female characters were all well-dressed and their characterization was their main selling points, now every female(and male) just have to be half naked just because. And you're still saying the franchise wouldn't design a character for the sole sake of sexualization? I'm sorry but the Occam's razor is stronger than your arguments.
4) I'll be frank, but TM had always been more or less "we design this, then we think up bullshit to explain it", which is why they broke their own universe's rules for every 3 new character they created. At this point there are as many "exceptions" than there are actual straight examples.
5) If you still disagree, please explain how Attila "near-naked stoneface with a sword named Photon Ray" is a brilliant design adhering to the Scourge of God's legacy.
About the lore released years after the character design, well of course. The designs were only in place first because TM was trying to make an online game and they released some teaser character designs that they hoped would pique the interest of people. A rough draft, basically, and many of those concepts didn't stay in when Apocrypha became a novel, like Shakespeare losing The Globe: Seat of the King or Atalanta's NP being able to kill all men or all women in an area. I'd imagine that they didn't release all the details because it was still a rough draft at that point, and only released them when the novel got finalized.
Anyway, at this point, it really just seems like you and people who have similar views can't get past the popularity of the Fate franchise and the cultural differences. Sure, there are some things that even I have problems with (mainly Saberfaces that make no sense, like Nero, or Okita, who was supposed to be a parody but then made into an actual character, or random genderswaps, the only genderswaps that I liked were Arturia because OG and Drake because it made sense) but when the Japanese fandom loves pretty much everything they put out ("controversial" designs in the West like Shuten/Raiko/Jack/Helena/Atilla/Mary+Anne are beloved by JP artists) and they still make tons of money then it really feels that TM knows what their audiences like (audiences being the Japanese, which they only cater to, they have never catered to the West) and so are doing what they can to blend both JP tastes and keeping what they can about history/mythology. And really, people just love to focus on the more obvious fanservice ones and forget that there are an equal, if not larger amount of Servant designs that have little to do with fetishes (and most of the fetishistic designs are from FGO where they get guest artists from all over and many of them have ties to the h-community, which again, Japanese fans don't really care about).
After all, if they can still make serious stories like Apocrypha, Fragments, Strange/Fake and the like, I can keep an open mind about their character designs and enjoy the more interesting ones. If you can't keep an open mind and want to return to the "good old days" of when before Fate was more popular, then it's probably a good time to get out and save some stress. Like it or not, Fate will keep doing what it's been doing, and apparently what it's been doing is the right thing because Japan has very little complaints. I just try to look at what's interesting and there's a lot more of that than what I dislike.
Farran said: TM knows what their audiences like (audiences being the Japanese, which they only cater to, they have never catered to the West).
In the end, this is ultimate reason of all - Their main audience is THE japanese, where they (this is my opinion) doesn't have to deal with SJWs, the demand for inclusion of certain race or sexual orientation or any dumb thing that (unfortunately) some westerners (mostly) could think of.
I remember about some rants about Kancolle being anti US waaaay back (this is before Iowa), Kotaku's writer vs George Kamitani fiasco regarding Sorceress' melons, and then, TK's decision to not releasing any DOA in the West because all of the blahblah. They're comfortable with their main audience.
Yes, while I will agree that TM will do whatever the hell they want as long as they're making money, you can't say FGO is anywhere being unanimously loved in Japan.
I've seen plenty of Japanese complaints against FGO, ranging from pay to win marketing, cheap animations, convoluted plot, being a bland cash cow, and yes, bad characters with stupid lore. If anything, FGO is as much of being SAO in the Japanese community, a mere mention of the name is as likely to attract derides as they do fans. So no, it's not like TM is doing a phenomenal job even with their "main audience".
This is unrelated, but I just don't like this "as long as they're making money they can do whatever the hell they want" reasoning. Both in the east and the west, mind you. It allows people like Michael Bay to continue making films like Transformers. I know it's an outdated sentiment at this point, but it just irks me how the entire entertainment industry cares more about short term profit than quality.
Also @KowaiTeitoku , the rants are not out of any SJW sentiments, it's about the accuracies. If it means accurate, then I wouldn't care if the FGO roster would be 80% male dominated.
azurelorochi said: Also @KowaiTeitoku , the rants are not out of any SJW sentiments, it's about the accuracies. If it means accurate, then I wouldn't care if the FGO roster would be 80% male dominated.
Yeah, i know...Maybe it's just me that getting tired of all that sentiments (my job is closely related to video game and anime...And reading/seeing/watching about 'that' is a part of it), so i misinterpret your rants. I apologize.
Yeah, i know...Maybe it's just me that getting tired of all that sentiments (my job is closely related to video game and anime...And reading/seeing/watching about 'that' is a part of it), so i misinterpret your rants. I apologize.
azurelorochi loves complaining about what they think are bad for Fate, like say, complaining insistently about Nero or right here about jack and why they're murdering the series.
azurelorochi loves complaining about what they think are bad for Fate, like say, complaining insistently about Nero or right here about jack and why they're murdering the series.
We get those rants in every fandom really. And it just gets somewhat silly when the franchise keeps gaining fans and cash like no tomorrow and the vocal minority insists they know what's "right" or "wrong" for a series. Man, is this what it feels like to be a Star Wars/Star Trek fan back in the day?
Most people learn to deal with minor faults and embrace the rest, others get stuck on certain points and refuse to move past. Aren't fandoms fun to watch?
Farran said: Most people learn to deal with minor faults and embrace the rest, others get stuck on certain points and refuse to move past. Aren't fandoms fun to watch?
azurelorochi loves complaining about what they think are bad for Fate, like say, complaining insistently about Nero or right here about jack and why they're murdering the series.
Well I apologize for backing up my opinions with reasons rather than being a blind hater.
Would you prefer me to shout childish insults instead, or would you rather simply, and ironically live in a world where people aren't allowed to disagree?
I'm not saying no one should enjoy FGO, I'm stating my personal distaste of it, then back it up with rationality. And apparently that's a bad thing.
Well I apologize for backing up my opinions with reasons rather than being a blind hater.
Would you prefer me to shout childish insults instead, or would you rather simply, and ironically live in a world where people aren't allowed to disagree?
I'm not saying no one should enjoy FGO, I'm stating my personal distaste of it, then back it up with rationality. And apparently that's a bad thing.
no you back your dislike up with covering your ears and going "la la la."
I've seen plenty of Japanese complaints against FGO, ranging from pay to win marketing, cheap animations, convoluted plot, being a bland cash cow, and yes, bad characters with stupid lore. If anything, FGO is as much of being SAO in the Japanese community, a mere mention of the name is as likely to attract derides as they do fans. So no, it's not like TM is doing a phenomenal job even with their "main audience".
FGO DID have cheap animations. The team was obviously unskilled and inexperienced with their tools when they first started, not to mention strapped for manpower. That is no longer true. Old releases are getting touched up, new ones come with good animations from the beginning, and they are only getting better.
Pay to win? No, not at all. Yes, people are salty about the gacha. But gacha salt is universal, every single gacha game will ever have it. And yet FGO has put a lot of emphasis in the viability of cheap servants, just look at all-bronze runs or the plethora of upgrades given to cheap servants since the game was released.
Convoluted plot? C'mon it's Nasu & friends. That said, there WERE weak chapters, Rome standing out (which Sakurai apologized for, and made true to her promise with a much better London). Early chapters in particular were fairly weak since the writing team believed that the mobage-playing audience wouldn't care for a particularly dense story, and once they were proved wrong by fan feedback chapters have become much more involved.
And I believe everyone agrees that TM and DW have made a much, much better job once they settled in with the format and business model. I'd love to know if those complaints you've mentioned are still being done nowadays.
FGO DID have cheap animations. The team was obviously unskilled and inexperienced with their tools when they first started, not to mention strapped for manpower. That is no longer true. Old releases are getting touched up, new ones come with good animations from the beginning, and they are only getting better.
Pay to win? No, not at all. Yes, people are salty about the gacha. But gacha salt is universal, every single gacha game will ever have it. And yet FGO has put a lot of emphasis in the viability of cheap servants, just look at all-bronze runs or the plethora of upgrades given to cheap servants since the game was released.
Convoluted plot? C'mon it's Nasu & friends. That said, there WERE weak chapters, Rome standing out (which Sakurai apologized for, and made true to her promise with a much better London). Early chapters in particular were fairly weak since the writing team believed that the mobage-playing audience wouldn't care for a particularly dense story, and once they were proved wrong by fan feedback chapters have become much more involved.
And I believe everyone agrees that TM and DW have made a much, much better job once they settled in with the format and business model. I'd love to know if those complaints you've mentioned are still being done nowadays.
ever since Oceanus fans have been praising the story chapters, special events and interludes writing. Hell, Nasu managed to get Urobachi to write an honest, no strings attached happy ending in Zero/Accel Order.
Poor kid got the worst medical experts. And once again, poor Reisen for having to put up with all of it.
You musn't!!!In other words, it's something like this, huh.But I guess I'll specially deal with it this time!Like the kid's mentality for example!!!I see.I would prefer the ideal option of bringing some medicine that could kill the opponent in one strike.I made a special muscle enhancement drug that can allow you to send your opponent flying with one strike when it's consumed~!Go home!!Consider this my debut service!I see~ So you were hurt because you had a fight with your friend.This is just getting even more messed up.In order to prevent the same thing from happening, we must sterilize the opponent, and that will be the end of it!I'll leave the guiding to you!There'll be all kinds of irreversible matters if you go!Look~ Udonge~!Only ONE PUNCH. ONE PUNCH~