Created Yokohama_Kaidashi_Kikō (series) and Kokone_Takatsu (character). On hindsight, I should have used a "oo" instead of a "ō".
If that could get corrected, that'd be great.
Updated by memento mori
Posted under General
Created Yokohama_Kaidashi_Kikō (series) and Kokone_Takatsu (character). On hindsight, I should have used a "oo" instead of a "ō".
If that could get corrected, that'd be great.
Updated by memento mori
Log said: Fixed but for future reference we use ANN romanizations for everything
Well, usually. ANN isn't consistent about some things (*Zetsubo* Sensei instead of Zetsubou), and they also use macrons sometimes, which we should never ever use.
But for the most part, yeah, ANN is the authority unless you can point to something on the official Japanese page. That's mostly useful when anime characters have non-Japanese names, at which point romanization becomes a total crap shoot.
葉月 said:
Additionally, ANN is guilty of using the "oh" transcription in some cases, which is something to be killed with fire on sight. But as has been said before, it's generally a very good guideline and can be used relatively safely.
But I thought when official romanizations of the name exist, we should prefer those? Like "Tohsaka Rin" for example in post #148381 and other places.
For bonus points, please explain why that supposed "official" romanisation spells Tohsaka, but Matou? Seriously, it's like asking me for "official" arabicisation of my (real) name, I have no fucking clue, and I don't care. Japanese don't either, but they use roman letters anyway for the cool points.
I have to say though, the spelling of a name can hardly be considered "wrong". If the Tohsaka family wants their name romanized that way, who's to say it's wrong? People intentionally mispell their names all the time.
Consistency is all well and good but if Danbooru is going to be the only place spelling her name like that, what's the point? We're not a dictionary site, or a site teaching Japanese.
I'd rather use the spelling that people recognize, instead of a more "correct" one that just makes people wonder why it's misspelled... for actual words, by all means use the correct romanization in whatever scheme you employ, but for names that is a bit silly. Just go with the popular spelling, especially when it agrees with how the copyright holders romanize it. Otherwise, why don't we rename Kallen Stadtfeld to Karen or Kalen already? Kallen is obviously wrong.
Otherwise, why don't we rename Kallen Stadtfeld to Karen or Kalen already? Kallen is obviously wrong.
Fictional Non-japanese names are an entierly different (actually reverse :p) issue and not really related to the subject at hand at all.
IIRC(?) in terms of danbooru the trend is to follow whatever official latin renderings there are of said name or, in the case that there aren't, the most common intepretation of such.
Also, macrons are retarded and whoever thought up they'd be awesome as a standard should die in a fire.
Muey said:
IIRC(?) in terms of danbooru the trend is to follow whatever official latin renderings there are of said name or, in the case that there aren't, the most common intepretation of such.
That's what I thought, by then the tag should be tohsaka_rin, and not toosaka_rin, since that how the copyright holders romanize it, and it's also the popular spelling. And the latter just looks stupid.
piespy said:
I have to say though, the spelling of a name can hardly be considered "wrong". If the Tohsaka family wants their name romanized that way, who's to say it's wrong? People intentionally mispell their names all the time.
We are. Toosakas' family name is 遠坂, and that's what they use and care about. Any romanisation is not for their use, they don't actually care about any propriety of it, nor are they qualified to make decisions in this regard, not being the ones who ultimately employ the product of romanisation. This is further aggravated by the fact that most Japanese are taught retarded romanisations schemes that are more "correct" from their (ie. non-users) POV, but make no fucking sense for any of the actual users (ie. us), and their tendency to throw in gratitious Engrish / roman letters for no reason other than the cool factor. Were it meticulously researched and justified by the copyright holder, you'd be able to argue about it, but as it stands, their usage is no more of a paragon of proper use than the upside-down kanji ricers are so fond of on their cars.
Consistency is all well and good but if Danbooru is going to be the only place spelling her name like that, what's the point? We're not a dictionary site, or a site teaching Japanese.
Then so be it. We have aliases in place and shit, I don't want to put up with retarded romanisations just because some ignorant Japanese, who got inspired by a retarded, internally inconsistent romanisation scheme that only makes some amount of sense if you wanted to stop Americans who can't be fucked to learn the proper pronunciation from butchering it completely (which is a futile activity anyway, it'll be as bad as ever no matter what you do), decided to spell it "Tohsaka" on a poster thrown together in 10 minutes. It doesn't make it official in any way, despite what raging fanboys will tell you (which is yet another reason *not* to use the "official" version, just to piss idiots).
I'd rather use the spelling that people recognize, instead of a more "correct" one that just makes people wonder why it's misspelled... for actual words, by all means use the correct romanization in whatever scheme you employ, but for names that is a bit silly. Just go with the popular spelling, especially when it agrees with how the copyright holders romanize it. Otherwise, why don't we rename Kallen Stadtfeld to Karen or Kalen already? Kallen is obviously wrong.
Again, we have aliases. And non-Japanese names are a different case, as they're obviously not in their intended "original" form when spelt with kana, so any reverse engineering of that is just second guessing the intent of the creator. But for Japanese names we have a simple, consistent and widely accepted set of rules, and there's no reason to use anything else. Best example being Ditama Bow, which I had no fucking idea was actually Jitama Bou before I saw his name spelt in Japanese.
Updated
Muey said:
IIRC(?) in terms of danbooru the trend is to follow whatever official latin renderings there are of said name or, in the case that there aren't, the most common intepretation of such.
No. The priority is data quality, which amongst others means using proper names and spellings, not spellings that are widely circulated on the internet. For my stance on the quality of "official" information wrt. romanisation, see my rant in the other reply.
Also, macrons are retarded and whoever thought up they'd be awesome as a standard should die in a fire.
Yes, please.
Macrons are my arch nemesis, I will battle them to hell and beyond ::nods:: Anything I need to remember an alt+#### or start>run>charmap for should never be used when a better alternative exists. It's a shame ANN, and Wiki for that matter, settled on them because it reinforces a bad habit -- inserting a macron is annoying so people just leave it off and don't extend the vowel at all. Westernizing (into given_family) Japanese names also bothers me but I lost that battle LONG ago Even some fansubbers reverse the names. I'm just glad Danbooru is one place that maintains original name order.
Anyway, back on track:
Yes, Danbooru does follow official romanizations by and large, but this is aimed more at non-Japanese names, because most of the time they're batshit crazy and completely made up, so there's no real name to necessarily associate with it. So we just roll with the punches and take whatever logic-raping horrors Japan throws at us (Allelujah Haptism, wooo~), because really, the alternative is just making up something else equally batshit crazy.
But Japanese names? Not so much. There are widely accepted rules for romanization and they should be used. Japanese is mercifully simple in terms of its "spelling" (I know the term isn't necessarily the right one but you get the point), once you figure out the reading of the kanji. There are systematic and accepted ways to render the syllables into latin symbols, and that's what we stick with.
I don't I feel as strongly about it as 葉月 though, and if Rin were left tohsaka_rin I'd live. Likewise I'm fine if it's something else, so long as an alias was put in place since the rest of the internet does know her as Tohsaka Rin.
I'm okay with some exceptions, sort of like how when I'd read history journals and books (concerning any number of languages), there would often be a disclaimer on romanization at the beginning, outlining what romanization scheme they use but also noting the exceptions. Prime example, Tokyo is actually Toukyou but nobody ever uses that spelling. I'm not saying Tohsaka Rin has to be one of those exceptions, but simply saying that the concept of exceptions isn't anathema to me.
It does bring up something I've always wondered though - oh vs ou vs oo. I know 'oh' is the result of a different romanization scheme, but what is the rule on where ou and oo are used? It's one of the few areas where romanization isn't totally obvious to me.
jxh2154 said:
It does bring up something I've always wondered though - oh vs ou vs oo. I know 'oh' is the result of a different romanization scheme, but what is the rule on where ou and oo are used? It's one of the few areas where romanization isn't totally obvious to me.
It follows the Japanese usage. Both are pronounced as ō, but oo corresponds to the (fairly rare) おお and ou is the (overwhelming majority) おう. One prominent word that is spelt with "oo" is 大, read as, well, "oo" in many compounds. 遠 and 十 are both "too" and probably close the list of popular kanji read with "oo".
葉月 said: It follows the Japanese usage. Both are pronounced as ō, but oo corresponds to the (fairly rare) おお and ou is the (overwhelming majority) おう.
Ah yes, I'm used to oo from 大きい, probably the main example of that. Now I see where Rin's name comes in - 遠坂, (とおさか). And looking at the entry for the first kanji, it's one of the other rare oo words I know - 遠い, distant/far.
So is there a rule for where the alternate romanization puts 'oh' in (its version of 'oo'?), or does it just use it for it for all extended お's, regardless of it being おお or おう, and some words/names just become popularly romanized with the alternate for reasons unknown?
jxh2154 said:
So is there a rule for where the alternate romanization puts 'oh' in (its version of 'oo'?), or does it just use it for it for all extended お's, regardless of it being おお or おう, and some words/names just become popularly romanized with the alternate for reasons unknown?
The latter. It's a random mutation, so speaking of any rules is meaningless.
I've pretty much been going directly from hiragana readings on official sites or Japanese Wikipedia when I need to look up names, so I've been using "oo" pretty consistently in those cases with Danbooru tagging.
One thing is what to do with ぢ and づ - they make more sense as "ji" and "zu" in my opinion since that is closest to how they're pronounced. I've seen things tagged differently on Danbooru, such as with the main character of Tonagura being "Arisaka Kadzuki". Is it OK to change these?