Are sleeveless and halterneck mutually exclusive?

I keep coming back to post #41216. The following three things are true:

1) It is given as an example on the wiki page for halterneck.

2) It is also currently tagged as sleeveless. And its sleeveless-ness resembles that of post #6289685, which is used as an example on the wiki page for sleeveless turtleneck.

3) The wiki page for sleeveless says that the sleeveless tag should not be applied to halternecks. (Or at least it did, until I stupidly changed it two weeks ago in order to resolve the contradiction. Should've asked this question then.)

Which of the three shouldn't be happening? Or, if all three are correct, what am I missing?

StarfishAtLarge said in forum #423783:

I keep coming back to post #41216. The following three things are true:

1) It is given as an example on the wiki page for halterneck.

2) It is also currently tagged as sleeveless. And its sleeveless-ness resembles that of post #6289685, which is used as an example on the wiki page for sleeveless turtleneck.

3) The wiki page for sleeveless says that the sleeveless tag should not be applied to halternecks. (Or at least it did, until I stupidly changed it two weeks ago in order to resolve the contradiction. Should've asked this question then.)

Which of the three shouldn't be happening? Or, if all three are correct, what am I missing?

i'd assume so, since all halterneck are sleeveless unless they are an off-shoulder shirt or something like that

Thing is, strapless shirts are also sleeveless, but they aren't tagged as such, because by definition they're sleeveless and then some. As much as I want to consider the case closed when the first response I get is "Nope, you're probably right", I don't want to rule out the possibility of halternecks being handled similarly to strapless stuff.

StarfishAtLarge said in forum #423838:

Thing is, strapless shirts are also sleeveless, but they aren't tagged as such, because by definition they're sleeveless and then some. As much as I want to consider the case closed when the first response I get is "Nope, you're probably right", I don't want to rule out the possibility of halternecks being handled similarly to strapless stuff.

i'm fairly sure that sleeveless just means "covers shoulders, but not arms" while halterneck means "covers collarbone, but not shoulders" and strapless means "doesn't even cover the collarbone"

when u think of it this way it all fits together

Okay, so if I'm reading you right, you're saying that the correct policy is never to tag halternecks as being sleeveless, because they're a step above being sleeveless? And that in my original post, it's Fact #2 which should no longer be the case?

StarfishAtLarge said in forum #423859:

Okay, so if I'm reading you right, you're saying that the correct policy is never to tag halternecks as being sleeveless, because they're a step above being sleeveless? And that in my original post, it's Fact #2 which should no longer be the case?

no, i'm saying that's my opinion. i can't determine policies. nobody else is saying anything though, which is unfortunate

There are five distinct types of tops:

• Sleeved tops (regular t-shirts, long-sleeved shirts, etc)
• Sleeveless tops (sleeveless turtlenecks, etc; has a neck but no sleeves; like a sleeved top, but with the sleeves cut off)
• Strapped tops (tank tops, camisoles, bikinis, etc; has straps instead of sleeves)
• Strapless tops (tube tops, strapless dresses, etc; has no neck or sleeves; like a strapped top, but with the straps cut off)
• Off-shoulder tops (off-shoulder sweaters, etc; has sleeves, but they don't cover the shoulders; in between a strapless top and a sleeved top)

And there are three types of halternecks:

• Strapped halternecks (has a single strap that goes around the back of the neck; seen on dresses and bikinis)
• Criss-cross halternecks (still has a single strap that goes around the back of the neck, but it criss-crosses in front in an X-shape)
• Turtleneck halternecks (your example; has a turtleneck instead of straps)

In this typology, turtleneck halters like in your example are sleeveless, while strapped halters aren't, because sleeveless tops and strapped tops are two different things.

BUR #56454 has been rejected.

mass update spaghetti_strap solo -> -sleeveless -sleeveless_shirt -sleeveless_dress

Wow, that is a lot of info. Big time thanks, evazion.

And in that case, I'll try this.

StarfishAtLarge said in forum #424292:

BUR #56454 has been rejected.

mass update spaghetti_strap solo -> -sleeveless -sleeveless_shirt -sleeveless_dress

Wow, that is a lot of info. Big time thanks, evazion.

And in that case, I'll try this.

Mass updates like this aren't really a good idea. There's always the possibility of some weird post that makes the update mess things up. For example, there could be a solo post with an unworn sleeveless dress.

Wait, @StarfishAtLarge, if you're going to make spaghetti strap mutually exclusive with sleeveless, what are you replacing it with? Are we expected to search spaghetti strap along with whatever garment? You unilaterally changed the wiki for sleeveless dress after hearing 2 (two) people's opinions without suggesting any sort of replacement tag.

In my opinion, spaghetti strap or halterneck should still be tagged with sleeveless unless it's an off-shoulder dress or something, unless we make a new strapped top parent tag (ew no).

This wouldn't be a bad time to create something like a "strapped dress" tag. That could curb sleeveless being added to posts where technically nobody's actually sleeveless, like posts where a girl is wearing a shirt underneath a sleeveless dress. As an example, post #10965056 would have to have sleeveless if you wanted to be precise about the type of dress she's wearing.

Hankpropaniac57 said in forum #424571:

This wouldn't be a bad time to create something like a "strapped dress" tag. That could curb sleeveless being added to posts where technically nobody's actually sleeveless, like posts where a girl is wearing a shirt underneath a sleeveless dress. As an example, post #10965056 would have to have sleeveless if you wanted to be precise about the type of dress she's wearing.

Sleeveless is and has always been an especially terrible tag due to its implications. It's not actually for "sleeveless outfits", it's for "at least one article of sleeveless clothing", meaning your sleeveless search is full of pinafore dresses, jackets over barely visible tank tops, sleeveless jackets over long-sleeved shirts, and all sorts of other false positives.

If you want to help people find sleeveless posts, then it would be much more prudent to create a sleeveless_outfit tag than to try and fix sleeveless.

hasu_no_hassennen said in forum #424570:

Wait, @StarfishAtLarge, if you're going to make spaghetti strap mutually exclusive with sleeveless, what are you replacing it with? Are we expected to search spaghetti strap along with whatever garment? You unilaterally changed the wiki for sleeveless dress after hearing 2 (two) people's opinions without suggesting any sort of replacement tag.

In my opinion, spaghetti strap or halterneck should still be tagged with sleeveless unless it's an off-shoulder dress or something, unless we make a new strapped top parent tag (ew no).

If it were only Trapster who had responded, I would agree with you that I acted too fast in editing the Wiki. You can even see in my first response that I was making it a point not to simply believe the first person I was hearing from.

However, I feel that receiving a resolute & thorough rundown of all types of tops, and the definitions for each of them, from someone of the site's highest rank, is sufficient reason to change the Wiki.

StarfishAtLarge said in forum #424579:

However, I feel that receiving a resolute & thorough rundown of all types of tops, and the definitions for each of them, from someone of the site's highest rank, is sufficient reason to change the Wiki.

Even if evazion is the owner of the site, he is still one person. You cannot use one person's opinion as the basis of a unilateral change, especially when one of the types he mentioned doesn't even have a tag yet. The very one that would replace the tags you're removing, by the way. So long as that tag doesn't exist, removing sleeveless from posts without that replacement will only make them harder to find.

What I'm concerned about is where to draw the line between sleeveless and strapped top, if that becomes a thing. Would the "straps" have to be clearly separate to make it "strapped" instead of "sleeveless"? Is that a distinction anyone would care about?

hasu_no_hassennen said in forum #424580:

Is that a distinction anyone would care about?

About 30-40% of the Google image results for "sleeveless dress" are thin or spaghetti straps, so it's already a distinction that nobody cares about.

hasu_no_hassennen said in forum #424580:

Even if evazion is the owner of the site, he is still one person. You cannot use one person's opinion as the basis of a unilateral change, especially when one of the types he mentioned doesn't even have a tag yet. The very one that would replace the tags you're removing, by the way. So long as that tag doesn't exist, removing sleeveless from posts without that replacement will only make them harder to find.

What I'm concerned about is where to draw the line between sleeveless and strapped top, if that becomes a thing. Would the "straps" have to be clearly separate to make it "strapped" instead of "sleeveless"? Is that a distinction anyone would care about?

"Separate" how, exactly?

The way I understand it, sleeveless clothes aren't held up using straps at all; they just continue up over the shoulders, like this:
post #8834555
I personally see no issue with making a distinction between this and strapped tops.

I'm not even sure that strapped tops need their own tag. Is it possible to presume them as the default for spaghetti strap and halterneck?

StarfishAtLarge said in forum #424584:

The way I understand it, sleeveless clothes aren't held up using straps at all; they just continue up over the shoulders, like this:
post #8834555
I personally see no issue with making a distinction between this and strapped tops.

Do me a favor and Google "sleeveless dress". A good third of the results are strapped dresses. You might personally see no issue with the distinction, but most people consider "strapped" dresses to be a type of sleeveless dress.

The bulk update request #56454 (forum #424292) has been rejected by @nonamethanks.