Mickey & Friends

It almost slipped my mind to make a forum thread until @Damian0358 reminded me - I have a migraine and my brain is being a bit slow today, oops.

I made Mickey Mouse & Friends because I thought it was odd they were just tagged Disney when they have an official franchise name and that tag is also used for general company connection stuff, other mascot-likes such as Duffy and Friends and Disneyland stuff - especially given we tag things like Hello Kitty as such rather than just Sanrio.

However, I wanted to get others' opinions. To be clear, I don't think we should STOP tagging these characters as Disney, but I feel like having a tag for that specific franchise would be beneficial when other stuff also gets tagged Disney.

If anyone else has thoughts, they'd be much appreciated.

I have no problems with this copytag. Worth discussing if it should implicate Disney, and if other individual properties should also implicate Disney/if we want to use it as an umbrella tag or as a company tag closer to how the wiki page for Nintendo says to use its tag.

Having Mickey Mouse still be tagged with Disney when he has his own tag is like having Mario be tagged with Nintendo when he has his own series copytag, as just like Mickey's Disney's mascot, so is Mario Nintendo's.

If we keep Mickey Mouse & Friends as a tag, we should stop tagging Disney on its posts that aren't references to the Disney brand or crossovers with other Disney properties. This keeps it consistent with the other company tags, because doing it the other way (like what Ylime suggested) would set a very, very bad precedent (which had been discussed in some sense in topic #15218 and topic #29274).

Damian0358 said:

Having Mickey Mouse still be tagged with Disney when he has his own tag is like having Mario be tagged with Nintendo when he has his own series copytag, as just like Mickey's Disney's mascot, so is Mario Nintendo's.

If we keep Mickey Mouse & Friends as a tag, we should stop tagging Disney on its posts that aren't references to the Disney brand or crossovers with other Disney properties. This keeps it consistent with the other company tags, because doing it the other way (like what Ylime suggested) would set a very, very bad precedent (which had been discussed in some sense in topic #15218 and topic #29274).

I was thinking of it more like something like Sanrio than something like Nintendo, tbh - a weird outlier case, but I understand your perspective as well.

Trouble_Windows said:

I was thinking of it more like something like Sanrio than something like Nintendo, tbh - a weird outlier case, but I understand your perspective as well.

Sanrio, and related to it, DC Comics and Marvel are copyrights who are all about characters that so frequently crossover with one another (whether in the copyrights themselves, merch, etc.) that, for practicality's sake, it makes sense to give them a shared copyright tag.

Meanwhile, arguing for Mickey Mouse & Friends to still be tagged with Disney could eventually be used to argue that Disney should always be tagged on Fireball, Frozen, High School Musical, and Super Robot Monkey Team Hyperforce Go!, for Nintendo to always be tagged on not just Mario, but Super Smash Bros., Rhythm Tengoku, and Brain Age, for Cartoon Network to always be tagged on Powerpuff Girls, Teen Titans, Historietas Assombradas, etc. You'd effectively allow those tags to be rendered worthless, because who is searching a company tag to just see everything that company has? I know that's not what you're arguing for, but I'm just considering the implications of having giving Mickey his own tag and still tagging Disney on him.

Damian0358 said:

Sanrio, and related to it, DC Comics and Marvel are copyrights who are all about characters that so frequently crossover with one another (whether in the copyrights themselves, merch, etc.) that, for practicality's sake, it makes sense to give them a shared copyright tag.

Meanwhile, arguing for Mickey Mouse & Friends to still be tagged with Disney could eventually be used to argue that Disney should always be tagged on Fireball, Frozen, High School Musical, and Super Robot Monkey Team Hyperforce Go!, for Nintendo to always be tagged on not just Mario, but Super Smash Bros., Rhythm Tengoku, and Brain Age, for Cartoon Network to always be tagged on Powerpuff Girls, Teen Titans, Historietas Assombradas, etc. You'd effectively allow those tags to be rendered worthless, because who is searching a company tag to just see everything that company has? I know that's not what you're arguing for, but I'm just considering the implications of having giving Mickey his own tag and still tagging Disney on him.

I suppose that does make sense. I personally don't really see a slippery slope likely to happen here in practice but I do see the concern.

Should I make a BUR to see how people feel about implicating this tag to Disney or not? I'm just trying to brainstorm where to go with this.

Trouble_Windows said:

Should I make a BUR to see how people feel about implicating this tag to Disney or not? I'm just trying to brainstorm where to go with this.

I think if you feel that's the best move, then go ahead and make one. I've already given my opinion opposing it so you know I'd downvote, but a BUR would stir more discussion and possibly inspire folks to either side with or oppose it, all while commenting on the tag's existence generally.

BUR #39535 has been rejected.

create implication mickey_mouse_&_friends -> disney

Re: Above discussion, gauging how people feel about this.

I'm kind of meh on this - on one hand these guys are so intrinsically tied to Disney as a brand even beyond the way Mario is to Nintendo - which is why until now they were only tagged as Disney. I don't think it would incite a slippery slope, personally, but I also understand why people would be against an implication on principle.

Either way I do think having the tag is a good idea, since right now this group of Disney characters is hard to search for as Disney also applies to other things, and also doesn't always get tagged on related media to this franchise such as Goof Troop or The Three Caballeros, etc., despite existing in the same overall universe/franchise.

Whether it's implied to Disney or not isn't something I feel particularly strongly about.

BUR #39623 has been approved by @nonamethanks.

mass update mickey_mouse_&_friends disney -company_connection -> -disney

Alternative BUR to update if we do want the copytag and DON'T want it to automatically be tagged Disney, this only covers the posts already tagged as such of course but it's more meant to get consensus. Rest can be tag scripted.

This approach makes sense to me, but I still can't shake off the feeling that it's weird to tell people: "hey, the tag to search for Disney is not actually Disney, it's mickey_mouse_&_friends, and if you want to search for anything from Disney you're out of luck".
It's weird to not have an umbrella tag for disney, and it's weird to have an umbrella tag for Frozen + Hercules + The Lion King.

All in all, it's a problem entirely of our own making. Normal users expect to be able to search for nintendo or disney and see mario or mickey. Instead we've painted ourselves into a corner with this pigeonholing, so we can't actually have tags for things that most people would expect to be able to search for.

Confetto said:

I was thinking of it more like something like Sanrio than something like Nintendo, tbh - a weird outlier case, but I understand your perspective as well.

This is why I want a Type-Moon master tag for this exact reason.

Witch-Hunter-Siegfried said:

This is why I want a Type-Moon master tag for this exact reason.

conversation for another thread that we've already had several times over comrade. you were even there for at least one of them.

at least disney & nintendo have slightly more even splits im guessing

Ylimegirl said:

conversation for another thread that we've already had several times over comrade. you were even there for at least one of them.

at least disney & nintendo have slightly more even splits im guessing

Yes I was there for it, It was my thread lol

So then why pray tell are you (and now by extension I) derailing this forum thread with unrelated off-topic comments? This isn't the first time you've done this; don't quasi-spam the forum by derailing discussions with tangential topics.

Ylimegirl said:

So then why pray tell are you (and now by extension I) derailing this forum thread with unrelated off-topic comments? This isn't the first time you've done this; don't quasi-spam the forum by derailing discussions with tangential topics.

Only other time I commented in a quasi similar way was out of annoyance lol, this is a first for all intents and purposes and that's due to it IMO being relevant.

nonamethanks said:

This approach makes sense to me, but I still can't shake off the feeling that it's weird to tell people: "hey, the tag to search for Disney is not actually Disney, it's mickey_mouse_&_friends, and if you want to search for anything from Disney you're out of luck".
It's weird to not have an umbrella tag for disney, and it's weird to have an umbrella tag for Frozen + Hercules + The Lion King.

All in all, it's a problem entirely of our own making. Normal users expect to be able to search for nintendo or disney and see mario or mickey. Instead we've painted ourselves into a corner with this pigeonholing, so we can't actually have tags for things that most people would expect to be able to search for.

The reason you can't shake off that feeling is because it is weird to tell people this. I think we should use tags like disney_(company) and nintendo_(company) for posts explicitly referencing said companies, which would then allow users to actually find what they're looking for when they search disney or nintendo.

I think we can all agree that from a technical standpoint, grouping a bunch of thematically unrelated media together makes no sense - users can just search for individual copyrights, or make saved searches with combinations of different copyright tags. However, the majority of our userbase doesn't care about this. In the real world, games and other media are grouped together based on their parent company all the time; it is exclusively Danbooru that takes issue with acknowledging this connection. If you ask someone "what's your favorite Nintendo game", they're not going to turn around and tell you "that doesn't make any sense. it doesn't matter if Nintendo made it or not," they're going to say something like Smash Bros, or Mario Kart, or Breath of the Wild.

Because of this disconnect between what our users want and expect, and what we decided should be the case instead, Nintendo is and has always been one of the most mistagged tags on the site. It is constantly being gardened because of this, and at some point it makes you wonder - are we so out of touch? Because personally, I don't think it's the users who are wrong.

I don't want Danbooru to become Gelbooru in every Pokemon image having three extra copyright tags in creatures_(company), game_freak, and nintendo because of a loose company connection to minimal benefit.

Obst said:

I don't want Danbooru to become Gelbooru in every Pokemon image having three extra copyright tags in creatures_(company), game_freak, and nintendo because of a loose company connection to minimal benefit.

Neither do I. lozer is the one who added the creatures_(company) and game_freak implications, which I have always disagreed with. Nobody is talking about their favorite Game Freak game, and most people aren't even aware Creatures exists. They are pure bloat, and I do not want them anywhere near Danbooru.

AngryZapdos said:

The reason you can't shake off that feeling is because it is weird to tell people this. I think we should use tags like disney_(company) and nintendo_(company) for posts explicitly referencing said companies, which would then allow users to actually find what they're looking for when they search disney or nintendo.

I think we can all agree that from a technical standpoint, grouping a bunch of thematically unrelated media together makes no sense - users can just search for individual copyrights, or make saved searches with combinations of different copyright tags. However, the majority of our userbase doesn't care about this. In the real world, games and other media are grouped together based on their parent company all the time; it is exclusively Danbooru that takes issue with acknowledging this connection. If you ask someone "what's your favorite Nintendo game", they're not going to turn around and tell you "that doesn't make any sense. it doesn't matter if Nintendo made it or not," they're going to say something like Smash Bros, or Mario Kart, or Breath of the Wild.

Because of this disconnect between what our users want and expect, and what we decided should be the case instead, Nintendo is and has always been one of the most mistagged tags on the site. It is constantly being gardened because of this, and at some point it makes you wonder - are we so out of touch? Because personally, I don't think it's the users who are wrong.

I agree with this, tbh, at leadt for these kinds of companies where there are very much fans of the company as a whole. The same way there's dedicated Sanrio fans, there's also very dedicated Disney and Nintendo fans who are interested in everything they put out.

I think the companies themselves are marketed as a cohesive brand as well - most companies don't do this, but you see multiple crossover type products marketed as just "Disney" or "Nintendo" all the time, which I think also plays into why this feels odd.