Posted under Tags
KalpacMuskoxen said:
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People already tag the original version of the characters. Younger versions of characters in other media already get implied, and we imply things like super forms and prototype designs. I don't understand your logic here at all.
I also really disagree that Rusty Rose is in any way too fundamentally different from Amy Rose...
Trouble_Windows said:
People already tag the original version of the characters. Younger versions of characters in other media already get implied, and we imply things like super forms and prototype designs. I don't understand your logic here at all.
Sonic Prime functions similarly to multiverse stories like Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse. The variants presented (like Rusty Rose, Thorn Rose, the Chaos Council members, Nine, etc.) are different characters within the both the show's narrative and the subsequent games they have appeared in, not just the original characters in different outfits, forms, or ages.
For tagging purposes, treating them as distinct entities often leads to clearer and more precise searching. For example, we don't imply multiverse variants like Peter B Parker to the main Peter Parker tag, nor do the various distinct Mega Men iterations imply each other. Applying that logic here seems appropriate.
Trouble_Windows said:
I also really disagree that Rusty Rose is in any way too fundamentally different from Amy Rose...
They're different characters. Here's some clips with Black Rose and Rusty Rose interacting with each other. Neither of them are Amy, who is also a character in the show.
Updated by KalpacMuskoxen
KalpacMuskoxen said:
Sonic Prime functions similarly to multiverse stories like Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse. The variants presented (like Rusty Rose, Thorn Rose, the Chaos Council members, Nine, etc.) are different characters within the both the show's narrative and the subsequent games they have appeared in, not just the original characters in different outfits, forms, or ages.
For tagging purposes, treating them as distinct entities often leads to clearer and more precise searching. For example, we don't imply multiverse variants like Peter B Parker to the main Peter Parker tag, nor do the various distinct Mega Men iterations imply each other. Applying that logic here seems appropriate.
They're different characters. Here's some clips with Black Rose and Rusty Rose interacting with each other. Neither of them are Amy, who is also a character in the show.
Yeah, I guess that's fair then.
The bulk update request #39836 (forum #346593) has been rejected by @Trouble_Windows.
The bulk update request #39838 (forum #346597) has been approved by @nonamethanks.
So what about forum #346594?
Frankly this seems pedantic to me. Most of these characters look the same.
nonamethanks said:
So what about forum #346594?
Frankly this seems pedantic to me. Most of these characters look the same.
I agree, I left that one up because we already imply the Sonic and the Black Knight characters.
nonamethanks said:
So what about forum #346594?
Frankly this seems pedantic to me. Most of these characters look the same.
The "looks the same" argument can be misleading for tagging best practices. We have precedents for distinct tags even with characters with identical appearances, like the Harper and Sarah twins in Pokemon, and near-identical twins Hikari and Nozomi from Blue Archive (distinguishable only by their hairstyle) – the key difference is their identity. Conversely, Shadow Mario isn't implied to Mario because he's Bowser Jr., while Metal Mario is implied because he is Mario, despite being visually identical in nearly every way but hue. It's context-dependent on whether they are fundamentally the same character.
When the source material, artists, and fans treat variants (like the Sonic Prime multiverse characters or Storybook counterparts) as distinct, our tagging should respect that, even if visual differences are subtle to outsiders. Imposing implications based solely on appearance can misrepresent the artwork and actively hinders search use-cases (like finding images with both original and variant characters present). Maintaining separate tags, while cross-referencing on wikis, offers better precision.
The Storybook character implications should have never been made, considering it was made clear in their debut games that likenesses aside, they're different characters.
https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sinbad_the_Sailor
(also apparently as of March, Sinbad is set to be relevant again for the first time in 18 years!)
KalpacMuskoxen said:
The "looks the same" argument can be misleading for tagging best practices. We have precedents for distinct tags even with characters with identical appearances, like the Harper and Sarah twins in Pokemon, and near-identical twins Hikari and Nozomi from Blue Archive (distinguishable only by their hairstyle) – the key difference is their identity. Conversely, Shadow Mario isn't implied to Mario because he's Bowser Jr., while Metal Mario is implied because he is Mario, despite being visually identical in nearly every way but hue. It's context-dependent on whether they are fundamentally the same character.
When the source material, artists, and fans treat variants (like the Sonic Prime multiverse characters or Storybook counterparts) as distinct, our tagging should respect that, even if visual differences are subtle to outsiders. Imposing implications based solely on appearance can misrepresent the artwork and actively hinders search use-cases (like finding images with both original and variant characters present). Maintaining separate tags, while cross-referencing on wikis, offers better precision.
The Storybook character implications should have never been made, considering it was made clear in their debut games that likenesses aside, they're different characters.
https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Sinbad_the_Sailor
(also apparently as of March, Sinbad is set to be relevant again for the first time in 18 years!)
I feel like there's a big difference between twins and counterpart characters that are meant to be slightly different situations.
Also, while there are variants that don't get implied (I'm reminded of Dark Link and Nega Scott, for example), it's generally more of a case-by-case thing, which I feel is probably best, standardizing how different character variants in wildly different franchises are handled seems like a recipe for disaster. I don't think I've ever seen someone say Nine isn't Tails, just that he's a different version of Tails. I usually see artists on other sites like Tumblr use both the main Tails tag and the more specific Nine tag.
The Shadow Mario argument is also misleading. No one's ever proposed an implication to begin with. This is the first time that tag has been mentioned in the forums. That's not to say an implication for him would be correct, but you can't really make claims about "why" it's not implied when no one's actually discussed whether it should be or not to begin with.
Confetto said:
I feel like there's a big difference between twins and counterpart characters that are meant to be slightly different situations.
Also, while there are variants that don't get implied (I'm reminded of Dark Link and Nega Scott, for example), it's generally more of a case-by-case thing, which I feel is probably best, standardizing how different character variants in wildly different franchises are handled seems like a recipe for disaster. I don't think I've ever seen someone say Nine isn't Tails, just that he's a different version of Tails. I usually see artists on other sites like Tumblr use both the main Tails tag and the more specific Nine tag.
The Shadow Mario argument is also misleading. No one's ever proposed an implication to begin with. This is the first time that tag has been mentioned in the forums. That's not to say an implication for him would be correct, but you can't really make claims about "why" it's not implied when no one's actually discussed whether it should be or not to begin with.
You distinguish twins from counterparts, but the key factor for tagging should be whether the source treats them as distinct individuals. Sinbad isn't Knuckles in the story, regardless of looks. Implying them merges distinct identities.
How artists tag on Tumblr isn't relevant. Danbooru needs precise search. If "nine_(sonic)" implies "tails_(sonic)", searching for "tails_(sonic) nine_(sonic)" fails to find images with both, which is a key use case implications break.
Let's say a user wants to find a picture of Amy Rose and Rusty Rose together.
"amy_rose rusty rose" does not work, because rusty implies amy.
Fair enough! This hypothetical user is very tag-savvy and know of the persona gentags. They know "amy_rose rusty rose dual persona" will do the trick.
However, they find post #6503706 and post #6548842 and post #9215129 instead, which depict Rusty alongside... Black Rose.
These images would show up for a search of "rusty_rose amy_rose dual_persona" as well as "black rose_(sonic_prime) amy_rose dual_persona" - there is no way to specify "I want to find a picture of Amy Rose and Rusty Rose together" if Rusty implies Amy.
If Amy is not implied, then a simple search like "amy_rose rusty_rose" is all I need to find this picture, which features Amy and Rusty:
The biggest issue is that Sonic Prime's entire gimmick is that's it's based entirely around multiverse variants. It becomes objectively more difficult to find things if the variants are implied to the original character. Dedicated Sonic taggers haven't posted many Sonic Prime artworks, but the vast majority of them feature variants with other variants, or variants with the originals in the same image.
post #5930984 Nine with Rusty (No Tails or Amy)
post #5981372 Sonic with four variants, and none of the original cast. (Sonic with Dread, Nine, Rebel, and Thorn)
post #7865380 Tails with three of his variants. (Tails with Mangey, Nine, and Sails)
It wasn't as big of an issue when the Storybook games originally came out, as there was no interaction between the originals and their storybook counterparts, but when the entire show is based around variants interacting with each other, implies makes searches less accurate and less helpful.
Also, should we not be tagging images featuring the variants that made their debut in Sonic Prime "sonic prime" by default? They've all been featured prominently in Sonic Dash, Forces Speed Battle, Speed Simulator, etc, and no longer need it if we're going by the precedent set by those games. They're going to be in Sonic Racing: CrossWorlds, too. We're being inconsistent on whether to apply copytags outside of "sonic (series)" for subsequent appearances. Same goes for the Storybook characters as well, as they've been in both Dash and SFSB.
Updated by KalpacMuskoxen
Yeah, that's why I said I'm not too bothered by the Sonic Prime characters not being implied, though I still think the Storybook implications aren't currently causing any problems (and I don't see that changing any time soon). You're right that Prime revolving around the gimmick makes it more complicated.
(I'm a "dedicated Sonic tagger" too, by the way. You don't need to give me lengthy walls of explanation on how Sonic Prime works. Not mad, but it makes it hard to parse and respond to your posts, especially when you embed random images in the middle.)
Also yes, Sonic Prime variants should be tagged Sonic Prime even though they appear in mobile games. It's not inconsistent, it's an actual piece of Sonic media while Sonic Channel is a website that hosts Sonic art. Obviously variants from an actual piece of media should be tagged with said copytag.
Updated by Confetto
BUR #40575 has been approved by @nonamethanks.
create implication sonic_racing:_crossworlds -> sonic_(series)
Anyways, on the topic of Crossworlds...
The bulk update request #40575 (forum #349691) has been approved by @nonamethanks.
This bulk update request is pending automatic rejection in 5 days.
This bulk update request has been rejected because it was not approved within 45 days.
The bulk update request #39837 (forum #346594) has been rejected by @DanbooruBot.
