Hmm, Shiki's sermon seems pretty deep... not sure if I'm getting it all down right. If I'm not mistaken Mokou's biggest concern is that she's no longer human because she can't die, but Shiki is trying to set her mind at ease... not entirely sure, though.

Yeeeeah, if thats what she is triying to do, gl, lecturing someone who has sinned for thousand years might be a waste of time

She did so to Aya in PoFV who's also 1000+ years old (who was also the only one to remember what she's been told)

"The immortality you possess, that is by no means an eternal life."

But it is! That's EXACTLY what immortality means. Unending life, now and forever more.

"To start with, in this world there is no such thing as an eternal existence."

You haven't met my 'friend', Kaguya. She came from the moon, and she'd be completely powerless here if that was true. And Eientei is known as the house of eternity.

"Thus, when all things living things in this world come to an end, so too shall your eternity."

Eternity, in and of itself, has no beginning or end.
All life crumbles away - each and every living thing must die, this was the law of the world. If that's the case, then maybe I haven't been living since I drank the elixir. (last quote from CiLR CH4)

Mokou, this isn't like you. You'd be Boasting about your immortality right about now, and would say something along the lines of "No matter how many sins I commit, no matter if I'm killed, I will not die.", then criticizing Shiki for judging the living, even though she's a yama of the HELL.

But then....

Mokou said:
You haven't met my 'friend', Kaguya. She came from the moon, and she'd be completely powerless here if that was true. And Eientei is known as the house of eternity.

"Thus, when all things living things in this world come to an end, so too shall your eternity."

Eternity, in and of itself, has no beginning or end.
All life crumbles away - each and every living thing must die, this was the law of the world. If that's the case, then maybe I haven't been living since I drank the elixir. (last quote from CiLR CH4)

Mokou, this isn't like you. You'd be Boasting about your immortality right about now, and would say something along the lines of "No matter how many sins I commit, no matter if I'm killed, I will not die.", then criticizing Shiki for judging the living, even though she's a yama of the HELL.

It can be inmortality since she already started existing, having that, Mokou or any "inmortal" in gensokyo will eventually die.

The only way to be absolutely inmortal would be being some kind of unchanging "matter/energy" that has been there since before existing and will still be after the end.

The most near to inmortality there is to be is an existence that started since the very beginning and finishes in the very end.

Neither Kaguya or Mokou will ever die because there'd always be two people alive in the world, granting immortality for them... If that makes any sense...

TenguerecheBionico said:
But then.... It can be inmortality since she already started existing, having that, Mokou or any "inmortal" in gensokyo will eventually die.

The only way to be absolutely inmortal would be being some kind of unchanging "matter/energy" that has been there since before existing and will still be after the end.

The most near to inmortality there is to be is an existence that started since the very beginning and finishes in the very end.

You got some some things messed up here.
First, it's spelled "immortal".
Second, the Hourai Elixir is the elixir of immortality. It was confirmed, that anyone who drinks it can never, NEVER die.

This said, because Mokou drank the Hourai Elixir at any point in time, she was always immortal since it's the medicine of ETERNAL life.

Using this, and quotes from Mokou in the stage script, "Actually, death is not a part of my existence. To be devoid of death is to be devoid of life. Free from the bounds of life and death, I'm as human as they come..." -this said, the whole 'death and rebirth' doesn't apply to Mokou. And likewise, she also won't judged by Shiki.

In canon to the game and official works, Mokou is through and all means and to the fullest extent, immortal. This is a doujin. Obviously, the creator made Mokou's "immortality" not really immortal. And just because there's a way to do something, doesn't mean there's a way to undo it. If an impossible standard must be met, it can be irreversible.
Yes, after all, she doesn't die. She's immortal.

Well,let's see..
-I think I read somewhere that moon people came from earth some thousands of years ago,so they technically did "came" from earth,but I'm not quite sure so let's skip that for now.

-The Hourai Elixir was made by Eirin,so it's not exactly far-fetch to think she could make something that will counter it's effect too,so the Hourai Elixir's immortal can,potentially,die someday.Also,just because someone never know something doesn't make it impossible,so Mokou,who most likely not really close to Eirin that much,isn't the best person to know the Hourai Elixir's true potential and limitation you could find.
She's still the user of Hourai Elixir,though,so she probably get some basics down,but still not everything.And canon Hourai Elixir give user "never get sick" benefit,too,but we saw Eirin get sick at least once,so you shouldn't believe everything the Hourai Elixir tell you it could do.

HeroofWind1 said:
Neither Kaguya or Mokou will ever die because there'd always be two people alive in the world, granting immortality for them... If that makes any sense...

I don't get what you said.Why would there always be two people alive in the world, granting immortality for them?

-Yamas are judges of Buddhism hell(or close enough),not Dante's hell.The ruler of Asian's hell judge whether souls goes to hell or heaven,and if they did go to hell,they have them torture for the sou's sin.And when those sins ran out,they can reincarnate in earth or heaven if they have some deeds left.It's not really wrong for someone who will choose with world you will go after you die to want you to get to heaven.Yama's hell are basically prison,while Dante's hell are more of a concentration camp,so to speak.

And on unrelated note,I think I really need to get my homework done now.

krossite said:
-The Hourai Elixir was made by Eirin,so it's not exactly far-fetch to think she could make something that will counter it's effect too,so the Hourai Elixir's immortal can,potentially,die someday.

Nope. Officially, the Hourai Elixir is the elixir of immortality.

krossite said:
Also,just because someone never know something doesn't make it impossible,so Mokou,who most likely not really close to Eirin that much,isn't the best person to know the Hourai Elixir's true potential and limitation you could find.

The characters for Yagokoro (Eirin) translates to "Intelligence of eternally clear brightness over infinitely extended area." Meaning, Eirin has earned the title "Mind of God". If anyone would know the cure, it would be her. And seeing (officially, in CiLR Ch 1) Eirin said it herself "Anyone who drinks the elixir can never die", Eirin has effectively made an elixir that, anyone who tastes it, eliminates all factors that lead to death. This said, it is rightfully and to the fullest extent, the true elixir of immortality.

krossite said:
She's still the user of Hourai Elixir,though,so she probably get some basics down,but still not everything.And canon Hourai Elixir give user "never get sick" benefit,too,but we saw Eirin get sick at least once,so you shouldn't believe everything the Hourai Elixir tell you it could do.

Eirin did get sick. But not in canon. Actually in canon, it wasn't even confirmed that Eirin herself did drink it. So it wouldn't matter if she got sick or not. The Hourai Elixir is the elixir of immortality.

This is a doujin. The fact that Kaguya got sick earlier (contradicting the Hourai Elixir's "never-get-sick effect") and that the Yama here believes that Mokou will die one day, proves that in this DOUJIN, the Hourai Elixir here in this story has flaws. In canon, it does not.

The way I see it, the doujin-maker here doesn't like the idea of immortality, so he made Mokou actually mortal.

actually, in Japanese folklore, knowing the name of somebody lets you know a lot of stuff, like when they are going to die. Shiki knowing Mokou name, and the fact it's her job dealing with the dead, makes sense she'd know when Mokou is going to die, even if she's unable to die at the moment.

dandan said:
actually, in Japanese folklore, knowing the name of somebody lets you know a lot of stuff, like when they are going to die. Shiki knowing Mokou name, and the fact it's her job dealing with the dead, makes sense she'd know when Mokou is going to die, even if she's unable to die at the moment.

If what you say is true, then anyone who's immortal, Shiki would also know if they would also NOT die.

At the same time, Shiki, who's job is dealing with the dead and knowing knowing Mokou's name, would also be able to tell if death isn't a part of Mokou's existence.
And seeing she drank the elixir of eternal life, it isn't.

Using your own rules, you can't deny this.

Okay, ignoring the theology lesson here, what's up with Mystia's joke here about yakitori?

In fact, what the heck is yakitori?

In fact, why is the joke that Mokou is running a yakitori stand?

Ratoslov said:
In fact, what the heck is yakitori?

http://www.japan-guide.com/r/e102.html

Ratoslov said:
Okay, ignoring the theology lesson here, what's up with Mystia's joke here about yakitori?

In fact, what the heck is yakitori?

In fact, why is the joke that Mokou is running a yakitori stand?

In Mokou's interview with Aya, (and several other occasions), when asked questions about herself, Mokou describes herself as "I'm just a health nut that runs a yakitori stand". In canon, she just uses that as an excuse to remain reticent about herself.
But in this doujin, she actually opened one up because people kept coming for her, asking for yakitori. (I'm guessing the Bunbunmaru newspaper suddenly gained popularity) So she actually opened one up.
This puts her at odds with Mystia, who serves grilled eel (and is against yakitori).

Mokou said:

Using your own rules, you can't deny this.

... uh no... by The Rules, not "my rules", the ones Gensokyo is working on and Shiki is part of, the Yama can tell when somebody is going to die by knowing their name

dandan said:
the Yama can tell when somebody is going to die by knowing their name

But Mokou can't die. Shiki would also know that, is all I'm saying.

It would make sense too, because if she could "see" their death, she would also be able to "see" if they won't die. Or at the very least, confuse her a bit.

I have been reading... It looks like people who tasted up to just two times the Hourai Elixir can be reversed, based on what the "third taste" is supossed to do.
It's very probably that in a future, at least Mokou, "inmortals" can be reverted from their deathless state. The case we're seeing in this doujin is one of those affected by the vaguity of things we know, or at least me, because I haven't found anywhere that ZUN stated that Moukou nor Kaguya are rendered completely, irreversible inmortals.

TenguerecheBionico said:
Because I haven't found anywhere that ZUN stated that Moukou nor Kaguya are rendered completely, irreversible inmortals.

Yuyuko, the manipulator of death, said it herself that anyone who drinks the Hourai Elixir can never age or die. If it can be reversed, then it wouldn't be called "never', now would it?

Then, we have Yukari, the manipulator of boundries. Clearly, she'd be able to change Mokou back, right? No, even she stated Mokou was invincible, even after defeating her.

And finally, we have Eirin herself, who's name translates to "infinitely and all knowing over an infinite extended area". Clearly, if she created a medicine that eliminates all possibilities of death, she would also include the factor of being unable to reverse the Hourai Elixir's effects. The Hourai elixir, also known as the elixir of immortality and eternal life, clearly is shown irreversible. ZUN even stated in Mokou's Imperishable Night text profile "a human who's been living forever ever since drinking the Hourai Elixir".

This confirms it, that it's permanent and irreversible.

And lets face it, if there's a way to kill it, reversing it or otherwise, it wasn't really immortal in the first place. Mokou is, to the fullest extent, absolutely immortal.

Is the nature of Hourai immortality really such serious business for you? Fanartists have been reinterpreting Touhou for so long that 'alternate takes' are the majority of the franchise. If you really believe someone else has gotten it wrong, just sit back and read, and laugh if you want to.

Of course, I clearly didn't take that advice myself seeing as I made my 'booru account just to tell you this.

And a note to everyone else: 'Mokou' has done her homework here. She's right about Kaguya and Mokou being impossible to eliminate by any means. That's what makes them monsters even in Gensokyo.

Must also be noted, though, that the Hourai elixir was made based on Kaguya's eternity powers, however that works. Could Kaguya then have some power over the effects of the elixir?

Mokou~ Interesting So let me get this straight, Mokou isn't the one after Kaguya but the other way around and it all involves a fetish for strong fighters? Now judging on your comment(s) it seems that Mokou has accepted her fate, drop the grudge against Kayuga, and is trying to live her life the best she can.

RNGCombo said:

And a note to everyone else: 'Mokou' has done her homework here. She's right about Kaguya and Mokou being impossible to eliminate by any means. That's what makes them monsters even in Gensokyo.

Must also be noted, though, that the Hourai elixir was made based on Kaguya's eternity powers, however that works. Could Kaguya then have some power over the effects of the elixir?

Thanks for understanding. It's been a while since I've met someone who actually sticks to canonical material.

And that's a very good question.

Before I say anything, apparently it's not even the Hourai Elixir that makes Mokou immortal. It's the cause of it, but it's not the Hourai Elixir itself that keeps her alive, I've noticed after looking into the dialog and some other works. Apparently, it's just the action of having a few tastes of it that makes the drinker immortal. Kind of like rendering her immortal so she's immortal herself, instead of having that said ability to take away. If you look closely at it altogether, it defines immortality as "inability to die" more than anything. This said, her inability to be changed back either would fit the only definition.

Apparently, no, Kaguya can't kill Mokou. (which also fits the Imperishable Night's Mokou repetitive blurting out "Kaguya can't kill me, it's impossible, she knows it, etc!!"

If you take the time to think about it, Kaguya can manipulate eternity, but that doesn't mean she can actually undo it, or even if there is even a way to undo it.

After all, if there was a way to do that, it wouldn't be eternal in the first place. It's like the time she uncovered Eientei, but was later revealed that Eientei was the "house of eternity", and always had been there all along. Kaguya just uncovered it.

And likewise, she could have done the same with the Hourai Elixir. If she would have tried to undo that very thing, it would be like fighting against her own eternal power. She would get nowhere trying that, just like she got nowhere trying to kill Mokou.

Perhaps that's why Kaguya is so obsessive about strong fighters, particularly Mokou. It's because she knows she'll never kill her that she loves to fight her so much. (which also, why ZUN made a pun about her when naming her the "Lunatic Princess") Where as Mokou is shown irritated by it altogether.

And I do laugh at how fandom turns that around, and make Mokou look like the one after Kaguya. Some of the comics really make me laugh.

Mr_GT said:
Mokou~ Interesting So let me get this straight, Mokou isn't the one after Kaguya but the other way around and it all involves a fetish for strong fighters? Now judging on your comment(s) it seems that Mokou has accepted her fate, drop the grudge against Kayuga, and is trying to live her life the best she can.

That's exactly correct.

In fact, in Cage of a Lunatic Runugate, she is shown as almost forgiving Kaguya. She's scared Kaguya would go away, even.

Isn't it ironic?

Mokou afraid to see Kaguya go? Somewhat I can understand why she would be scared to see her rival and potential friend for life go. Now I need to read CiLR to fully understand.

Mr_GT said:
Mokou afraid to see Kaguya go? Somewhat I can understand why she would be scared to see her rival and potential friend for life go. Now I need to read CiLR to fully understand.

You go do that. It's a worthwhile read.

The thing one needs to understand about "the impossible" and "eternity", is that one would have eternity to make the impossible, possible...

Bansho said:
The thing one needs to understand about "the impossible" and "eternity", is that one would have eternity to make the impossible, possible...

It wouldn't be called "impossible" if there was a way to do that.
It's stuff like that that makes me want to laugh. Remember Kaguya? She can manipulate eternity, yet she knows she can never kill her rival.
And let's get our facts straight. Anything eternal can't be manipulated. That's why it's that way forever.
So Kaguya never exactly changes eternity. She has power over it, control.
Take Eientei for instance, the house of eternity. Kaguya never made it eternal, she only unveiled it in the bamboo forest. It was always there, which is exactly why it's eternal.

Whoa, wall o' texts up in here! And about the age old debate on eternity lol. Those usually devolve into a "infinity +1" type argument...

So my take on it is the same as a criminal suspect, "guilty unless proven innocent". So currently, I do believe Kaguya and Mokou to be perfectly "immortal/eternal" in all the meanings those words could contain. That is until the highly unlikely event it gets officially shot down somehow, and halfway reading the comments here I got bored enough to envision such a turnabout and make my own wall of text;

*ZUN getting drunk again and talking to a wall next to him*
ZUN: Man I wanna make another partner tagging system game like IN, hic, oh oh hey why not team up Reimu/Kaguya~n and Marisa/Moko-tan for it? Technicolor fantasy seal and Flaming master spark hehehe.
Wall: ...
ZUN: You think so too huh? Hm yeah you're right buddy, I wanna make another PoFV kind split screen duel game too, hic. Ah make the story about all of them dying and going to Higan to fit in the split screen duel along the partner system, plus they get to be nagged by Yama again. Nobody would mind how I color Reimu's skin tone like a zombie if she is dead!
*ZUN drinks more booze and starts doodling new character drafts on a napkin*
ZUN: Whaddaya think of this 4th stage boss gimmick?
Wall: ...
ZUN: Oh you right, need a plot twist, uhrm, the hourai immortals die then they don't die, so like they can get judged and keep being eternally alive, being immortal kinda and not immortal all at the same time! It'll make no sense whatsoever and full of inconsistencies I made myself but others could fill in the theory gaps and loose ends eventually!
*ZUN finishes his drink and his eyes start to become unfocused*
ZUN: It'll have danmaku, and blackjack, and hookers, and--
*ZUN passes out and we get a new Touhou game by next August*

otakudang26 said:
wall of text

Mokou doesn't die. It's said canonically over and over, in CiaLR, IN, and even PMISS.
Anyone who even remotely thinks that Mokou has even a slight possibility to die is just being ignorant, or never looked at any of the official works.
It must have been said 5+ times in each. Those are my words on the debate.

And it's true what I said earlier, that this Yama judges only the dead. Mokou should just say "Get lost, immortality and eternal life are the same thing, so you have no idea what you're talking about Shiki."

Even better yet, Shiki should call Mokou for "Being the victim of the ultimate/unforgivable sin" and shun her for it. At least this way, it'd be more canon. Because as I said god knows how many times, Mokou can't die - hands down.

I think you all are misunderstanding what Sikieiki said.

Moku will remain alive as long as the world itself remains alive. Her eternity is tied with the eternity of the planet she is on. Basically, Moku is tied to the lifespan of Earth, which is an "eternity" in that it will be billions upon billions of years before the planet dies. She's not a true immortal being like Celestials or Gods, but she is beyond the scope of a mortal existance.

Kaguya on the other hand, aside from also being an elixir immortal is a true immortal. Her power over eternity and an instant means she can effectively live forever even if she didn't drink the hourai elixir. She can stretch one second of her life till the end of the universe and beyond.

cd_young said:
I think you all are misunderstanding what Sikieiki said.

Moku will remain alive as long as the world itself remains alive. Her eternity is tied with the eternity of the planet she is on. Basically, Moku is tied to the lifespan of Earth, which is an "eternity" in that it will be billions upon billions of years before the planet dies. She's not a true immortal being like Celestials or Gods, but she is beyond the scope of a mortal existance.

Kaguya on the other hand, aside from also being an elixir immortal is a true immortal. Her power over eternity and an instant means she can effectively live forever even if she didn't drink the hourai elixir. She can stretch one second of her life till the end of the universe and beyond.

Eternity is eternity. It's not tied to anything, because it's without end. Whether it's on Earth or otherwise, if it has an end, it is not an eternity.

Mokou is a true immortal because she drank the Elixir of Immortality. Kaguya too, was not born an immortal. If you know the material correctly, she became immortal by having Eirin make her the Hourai Elixir and then drinking it to live forever. It was then that she was banished and the reason why the Lunarian Princess wound up on Earth.

Now neither of them can ever die, and they're forced to live forever because they both tasted the medicine. The same goes for anyone who had a taste of the forbidden medicine.
Notice, it does not say anything about "the end of the Earth of universe". They both can never die. It's as if they have already lived forever.
If the universe did somehow had an end, they still cannot die. They will be the universe if they have to. It's been said countless times before. They cannot die.

Re: Mokou

Mokou (and Kaguya) will last beyond the end of all things. That much is canon.

It must be noted that Mokou doesn't need to be punished by anyone for anything. All she has been through and all that she will be through (especially once she and Kaguya are alone in all existence) are more than enough punishment for anything she could ever do. Even the Yama in all her power can't condemn her to anything worse than eternity with the Lunatic Princess.

And here I thought http://www.qwantz.com/index.php?comic=1822

Oh wow I finally managed to find this comic again.

For those having trouble understanding what Shikeiki means here, just imagine that the planet Earth just blew up as a whole one day. Mokou wouldn't be able to breathe in outer space, and thus she'd die, then be reborn again, die again, etc...
She would continue to exist as a horrible cycle of life and death, but wouldn't be able to actually live again until she happened to crash into somewhere with the appropriate conditions for life a gazillion years later. Perhaps it wouldn't happen again, ever, and in that case I figure they'd spare her from that eternal cycling existence and she'd actually meet Shikieiki to be judged.

Perhaps I'm wrong and I've failed to consider things, but this makes sense in my head for now.

bit late but might as well offer my thoughts at this point.

kaguyas ability relates a single instant and eternity, and the hourai elixir uses that power to keep a person in a single state. This is why mokou and kaguya can still take damage but then appear to be fine. The elixir just returns their bodies to the way they were when they drank it.

I think what the artist is saying is that this power will only work whilst their eternity is separate from the instantaneous moment. So at the moment they're fine because their daily lives have distinct events in them, but when there's nothing left in the world and their lives have no events in them, then there will be no defined instantaneous moment and the instantaneous and the eternity will be effectively the same and the elixir will lose its power and they'll die.

That's how I read it anyway.