Now that I think about it, Cirno and Aya already broke through the "human and half-human protagonist in the main series" ceiling back in PoFV. Even if you try to exclude that game for its format, Reisen, also playable in PoFV, was protagonist in LoLK. Sky's the limit, folks.
Now that I think about it, Cirno and Aya already broke through the "human and half-human protagonist in the main series" ceiling back in PoFV. Even if you try to exclude that game for its format, Reisen, also playable in PoFV, was protagonist in LoLK. Sky's the limit, folks.
Well, there have also been "partners" games since Imperishable Night, which I think is a great way to draw upon a larger set of the roster. (Yukari was a playable character in IN and sorta in SA, and Patchy was pseudo-playable in SA, for example, even though neither one are "playable" otherwise outside of the fighting games.)
Vid-szhite said:
Some people just can't let other people be happy.
Vid-szhite said:
4) Sakuya gets mad because she's not in this one either.
Looks Youmu's starting to get Sakuya Syndrome.
You mean, "fans of Sakuya get mad". (And now, Youmu fans...)
It's not "just letting people be happy" when it seems to some people like their favorite toy is being stolen so it can be given to their damned younger sibling... (That was MY TRAIN!!!)
It's not "just letting people be happy" when it seems to some people like their favorite toy is being stolen so it can be given to their damned younger sibling... (That was MY TRAIN!!!)
The only two characters guaranteed to be in any main Touhou game are Reimu and Marisa. Sometimes nobody else gets in, not even as partners. Nothing's been taken from anyone. ZUN doesn't add characters unless they fit the theme of the game. Sakuya doesn't get in unless the SDM is involved somehow, and Youmu doesn't get involved unless the afterlife is involved somehow.
I can understand their frustration over Aya. She's been in fucking everything since her first appearance, so her eventual ascension was a foregone conclusion, but at the same time, she's not lacking for screen time at all. As for Cirno, I can't really cry for Youmu fans if they're mad about Cirno. Youmu has had more game time and still appears in a lot of non-game spinoffs. Cirno's fans, on the other hand, have had to watch their favorite character become reduced to the butt of every joke time and again, with some side works retconning Cirno's major in-game milestones. Even her victory over Marisa was later revealed to be just Marisa shining a flashlight in her face. The fact that she got a tan in light of that is actually pretty significant, because it shows just how much stronger she's gotten, and how far she's willing to go to get there. She went from feeling like a flashlight in her face was a real fight for her life, to willfully standing in direct summer sunlight long enough to get a pretty dark tan without minding the heat at all. Cirno is the Meme Protagonist, and to see her ascend to Full Protagonist, on 4/20 no less, is kind of cathartic.
I hope 17 is a Phantasmagoria so we can just throw fucking everyone in there.
The only two characters guaranteed to be in any main Touhou game are Reimu and Marisa. Sometimes nobody else gets in, not even as partners. Nothing's been taken from anyone. ZUN doesn't add characters unless they fit the theme of the game. Sakuya doesn't get in unless the SDM is involved somehow, and Youmu doesn't get involved unless the afterlife is involved somehow.
I can understand their frustration over Aya. She's been in fucking everything since her first appearance, so her eventual ascension was a foregone conclusion, but at the same time, she's not lacking for screen time at all. As for Cirno, I can't really cry for Youmu fans if they're mad about Cirno. Youmu has had more game time and still appears in a lot of non-game spinoffs. Cirno's fans, on the other hand, have had to watch their favorite character become reduced to the butt of every joke time and again, with some side works retconning Cirno's major in-game milestones. Even her victory over Marisa was later revealed to be just Marisa shining a flashlight in her face. The fact that she got a tan in light of that is actually pretty significant, because it shows just how much stronger she's gotten, and how far she's willing to go to get there. She went from feeling like a flashlight in her face was a real fight for her life, to willfully standing in direct summer sunlight long enough to get a pretty dark tan without minding the heat at all. Cirno is the Meme Protagonist, and to see her ascend to Full Protagonist, on 4/20 no less, is kind of cathartic.
I hope 17 is a Phantasmagoria so we can just throw fucking everyone in there.
Well, when this is an entirely arbitrarily constructed set of events, then Zun is the only one that controls whether the SDM is or isn't involved. With SA, for example, it's Patchy who notices first, and either forces Marisa into action, or is rebuffed and gets whoever the Youkai partner the player chooses to be the one who forces either Reimu or Marisa to act (unless it's Nitori or Aya). SDM was involved in that game, but Sakuya still didn't show up, and neither did a lot of other characters. Why does the SDM have to "be involved" in some way (when most events will affect ALL of Gensokyo, I.E. invaders from Hell wanting to scour the surface with sunfire or invaders from the Moon wanting to conquer...) when Aya gets involved all the time regardless of relation to Youkai mountain, and Cirno doesn't even HAVE a faction to call her into action.
As for Youmu fans versus Cirno fans, then what about Hong Meiling jokes? Hong Meiling is even more the butt of jokes and still hasn't had any real screentime outside of fighting games. It was kind of a fluke that Cirno had a game at all, and was mostly just because she's so popular (but then again, so are a lot of characters that aren't getting their own games...), but popular characters are popular in part because they get screentime and starring roles in games... which is why there were Youmu fans to start with. If it was just "only the humans get to be playable", then there wouldn't be any expectation that Meiling or Cirno or Rumia or Yuuka could ever be a playable character (again) outside of the fighting or Phantasmagoria games, but when you break down those doors, it's seriously just arbitrary which characters are in or out.
Worse, if you basically say that Cirno got a starring role because she had the noisy fans, then doesn't that directly encourage Sakuya and Youmu fans to be noisier? And that's the arbitrariness that makes people feel like it's a toy being stolen. There are 3-6 slots for different "playable characters" (although sometimes, that's just Reimu A/B and Marisa A/B), so what you're saying now is that, "Youmu's slot was taken away and given to Cirno fans because they complained that their character was being neglected and demeaned (even though that's literally the basis for her character's appeal), so now they can't complain when their character is being neglected and demeaned."
Oh, and if Sanae goes a few games without appearing, you KNOW there's going to be all kinds of drama...
with some side works retconning Cirno's major in-game milestones
The games have the highest priority canon of the series. If side stuff messes something up and are inconsistent with the main games then they're the ones in non-canon territory. No matter what happens in the side games or comics it will never undo or change the main games' story.
The merch wagons don't get to say where a rock band goes to play.
At the end of the day, ZUN does what he wants, for whatever reasons he feels like. And it often contradicts the obvious things that the fanbase thinks about. Much like when the fanbase thought the Watatsuki sisters would show up in LoLK, a game wholly about Lunarians, and ZUN was just like nah. If ZUN feels like having Star Sapphire and Rumia playable in a main game, then that's what happens, regardless of what the fanbase thinks or wants.
At the end of the day, ZUN does what he wants, for whatever reasons he feels like. And it often contradicts the obvious things that the fanbase thinks about. Much like when the fanbase thought the Watatsuki sisters would show up in LoLK, a game wholly about Lunarians, and ZUN was just like nah. If ZUN feels like having Star Sapphire and Rumia playable in a main game, then that's what happens, regardless of what the fanbase thinks or wants.
Yes, because someone trying to sell a game doesn't care at all about what sorts of things his prospective customers care about or give a damn about customer feedback, amirite?
Zun is a human being, not some mysterious black box entity from beyond the reaches of time and space bestowing upon humanity gifts of inscrutable purpose and meaning. He sees what people write and say about his characters, and has conversations with people (even if generally only Japanese people) about his works. He knows and works with several influential fanartists in various spinoff projects, as well. People have influence, even if not total influence over what he does, so this mythology of Zun as some sort of being that operates beyond all natural laws of time and space that gets floated around any time people want to shield him from criticism is ridiculous.
Yes, it often contradicts some things the fanbase wants because... the fanbase isn't a single, cohesive entity. There were people who hated the notion of Watatsukis showing back up, and people who looked forward to it. "The fanbase" doesn't agree on anything, especially which characters are their favorites, and therefore should appear more frequently in games. (But hey, there's an annual fanpoll, and it sure seems like scoring a high rank means those characters tend to show up in the future, doesn't it?)
Yes, because someone trying to sell a game doesn't care at all about what sorts of things his prospective customers care about or give a damn about customer feedback, amirite?
Not entirely, but aside from the general things he follows like always having Reimu and Marisa or always having new characters be the "important" ones, it seems pretty clear to me that he does what he feels like, makes games about what he wants, brings back who he feels like, not what vocal fans expect of him.
Zun is a human being, not some mysterious black box entity from beyond the reaches of time and space bestowing upon humanity gifts of inscrutable purpose and meaning. ... People have influence, even if not total influence over what he does, so this mythology of Zun as some sort of being that operates beyond all natural laws of time and space that gets floated around any time people want to shield him from criticism is ridiculous.
Nowhere have I said or even implied any such thing at all, but I suppose it's cool deliberately misconstruing people's comments to offer rebuttals.
Yes, it often contradicts some things the fanbase wants because... the fanbase isn't a single, cohesive entity. There were people who hated the notion of Watatsukis showing back up, and people who looked forward to it. "The fanbase" doesn't agree on anything, especially which characters are their favorites, and therefore should appear more frequently in games. (But hey, there's an annual fanpoll, and it sure seems like scoring a high rank means those characters tend to show up in the future, doesn't it?)
Considering a character like Mamizou is currently one of the most influential characters while simultaneously ranking quite low in those polls you mention, I'd tend to disagree.
Considering a character like Mamizou is currently one of the most influential characters while simultaneously ranking quite low in those polls you mention, I'd tend to disagree.
Well, she is famous due to her appearance on Forbidden Scrollery. Does it still counts?
Well, she is famous due to her appearance on Forbidden Scrollery. Does it still counts?
She's famous for sure, but as far as popularity polls are concerned she ranks pretty bad if you exclude the joke entries and other very low popularity characters (minor PC-98 characters, etc). She ranked 64 this year, which, well... it could be worse, for sure, but it could be much, much better. It's also lower than last year's result (61) and even lower than two years prior (48).
Sometimes a character's appearance in official work makes them more popular. Sometimes... it doesn't...
Well, when this is an entirely arbitrarily constructed set of events, then Zun is the only one that controls whether the SDM is or isn't involved. With SA, for example, it's Patchy who notices first, and either forces Marisa into action, or is rebuffed and gets whoever the Youkai partner the player chooses to be the one who forces either Reimu or Marisa to act (unless it's Nitori or Aya). SDM was involved in that game, but Sakuya still didn't show up, and neither did a lot of other characters. Why does the SDM have to "be involved" in some way (when most events will affect ALL of Gensokyo, I.E. invaders from Hell wanting to scour the surface with sunfire or invaders from the Moon wanting to conquer...) when Aya gets involved all the time regardless of relation to Youkai mountain, and Cirno doesn't even HAVE a faction to call her into action.
As for Youmu fans versus Cirno fans, then what about Hong Meiling jokes? Hong Meiling is even more the butt of jokes and still hasn't had any real screentime outside of fighting games. It was kind of a fluke that Cirno had a game at all, and was mostly just because she's so popular (but then again, so are a lot of characters that aren't getting their own games...), but popular characters are popular in part because they get screentime and starring roles in games... which is why there were Youmu fans to start with. If it was just "only the humans get to be playable", then there wouldn't be any expectation that Meiling or Cirno or Rumia or Yuuka could ever be a playable character (again) outside of the fighting or Phantasmagoria games, but when you break down those doors, it's seriously just arbitrary which characters are in or out.
Worse, if you basically say that Cirno got a starring role because she had the noisy fans, then doesn't that directly encourage Sakuya and Youmu fans to be noisier? And that's the arbitrariness that makes people feel like it's a toy being stolen. There are 3-6 slots for different "playable characters" (although sometimes, that's just Reimu A/B and Marisa A/B), so what you're saying now is that, "Youmu's slot was taken away and given to Cirno fans because they complained that their character was being neglected and demeaned (even though that's literally the basis for her character's appeal), so now they can't complain when their character is being neglected and demeaned."
Oh, and if Sanae goes a few games without appearing, you KNOW there's going to be all kinds of drama...
Dude. I get it.
The thing is, there haven't been any barriers to entry for main characters since the beginning. In PC-98, everyone was a recurring goddamn playable character. Mima and Yuuka were playables almost immediately. They didn't have partners, didn't need them. ZUN only used the Human-Youkai partnership gimmick in TH8 as a way to implement new gameplay elements, and that's what he's always done. The story always suits the gameplay he's designed and not the other way around. He's only made one exception and that's LoLK, but even there, he wanted to make a viciously hard game that was as unfair as I Wanna Be The Guy, so the Lunarians were perfect for it.
Stop acting like I said anything about noisy fans being the reason for their inclusion. My point was, these characters have every right to be included in whatever ZUN makes because they're part of his world, and if anyone's being unfair about this, it's the Youmu and Sakuya fans. Youmu/Sakuya fans are here bitching that their character isn't in this game, acting like Aya and Cirno are "secondary characters" who are stealing their spotlight, as if any character is somehow more deserving than any other. THAT'S infuriating. Many character fans haven't seen their favorites in ANY games. I would love to see Tenshi as a protagonist in a Danmaku game, but you don't see me bitching when she isn't. Excuse me for not shedding a tear for these ultra-popular, in-all-the-fanwork, in-tons-of-games characters who have gotten more game exposure than freaking Mima. I mean, FFS, Sakuya's been playable in five main games and two fighting games, and Youmu only has one less main game than that!
ZUN does not and has never, ever put characters in a game just because fans ask for it. He does what he wants and that's that, and if he wants what the fans want, great! If not, oh well, we'll just go back to enjoying our doujin shit like always!
What I don't like is people getting upset about someone getting in the new game, especially with a BS reason. Reisen is a Youkai too, and she got in with no human partner. I didn't see you complaining back then. Oh, and since you mentioned Meiling, I would love to see Meiling get a shot at a Danmaku game! I'd like to see that even if Sakuya was absent from that game! She isn't in this one though, so what am I going to do, complain that Aya and Cirno got in instead? Fuck that, I'm happy for new inclusions, not mad about exclusions, because if you get mad about exclusions, you're never going to be happy in this fandom. There are eight bajillion characters and the Danmaku games are made by one guy, someone's inevitably not getting in.
Meiling, Komachi, Flandre, Momiji. I don't care about fan works or the manga, I want to see them in more main games actually doing something or being playable. But that'll never fucking happen.
When you were just Spinoff Protagonists, that was one thing...BUT BUTTING INTO THE MAIN GAMES IS WHERE I DRAW THE LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINE!!!