Kreceir said: at this moment, this pool made my brain bleed... i guess i have to throw away my sanity just to read this with out being mindfucked every page.
This is really deep into bizarre internet fetish territory. Abandon all hope all ye who enter here.
If this story was more serious, I would be wrought with despair over the Touhous being transformed and brainwashed and stuff. As is...the above comments sum it up. What.
Masakan said: this isn't suppose to be sexy this is suppose to make you go wtf?
Sorry pal, but I've seen enough of the internet and it's perversion to know that the artist most likely drew this with one hand in his pants. This is seriously what turns him on. And he is not alone, either. And this is part of why I drink.
Would you feel better if I told you that there is a code that brings Aeris back, that this is no worse (and no less satisfying) than shooting the head off a human being in Violent Video Game, and that loosening up just a little bit won't hurt at all?
The flaggings happened pretty close to each other so it's not an absurd conclusion. It is at least 3 people for the record, one of them being myself.
Also I don't have any feelings one way or the other about Sukedai, I only really took notice when this whole harangue started a few days ago, I'm just trying to clean up some stuff that I don't think belongs here.
ShadowbladeEdge said: Also I don't have any feelings one way or the other about Sukedai, I only really took notice when this whole harangue started a few days ago, I'm just trying to clean up some stuff that I don't think belongs here.
I said this in one of the other comment threads, but "what you [meaning the janitors in general] think doesn't belong here" seems to be massively controversial.
While I'm hardly a fan of this artist, myself, there are a lot of things on Danbooru that any given individual might not like (Gaoo's works, for example, or specific fetishes like futa or fat or whatever) that other people obviously do like, and this sort of obviously biased deletion-by-the-tastes-of-a-few only ingrains bitterness between different factions of Danbooru's userbase.
It's needlessly antagonistic to single out specific types of tastes, and without some sort of pressing crisis for storage capacity or the like, and the purpose of cleaning up and deleting images is to maintain the quality of the works in Danbooru, not to perpetuate factionalism within the userbase. (At least, as far as I see it.)
There isn't anything terrible or against the rules with a red latex outfit or concept of characters turning to stone or any of the other things in this image. The art is good for a dialogue-heavy doujin, above-average, even, so the excuse of "terrible art" rings as nothing more than a hollow excuse. I see no valid reason to delete this image, and it seems to be perpetrated purely to target this one artist's whole series of work simply for being from the same artist that made other, more objectionable art.
(And for the record, I oppose much of that series's deletion, as well.)
ShadowbladeEdge said: So what you're saying is there's worse?
It depends on your definition of art. If it's content yes there's still worse stuff (such as touhou auction for example) but if it's the drawings themselves it's actually rather high quality, considering the time put into shading and lining (take http://danbooru.donmai.us/pool/show/2942 for example, it hasn't been shaded, colored or lined properly)
ShadowbladeEdge said: So what you're saying is there's worse?
I'm saying that there's a different standard for dialogue-based doujins than there is for standalone art pieces, because content and art quality can be measured in aggregate.
There's reason for doujins with an interesting storyline to be allowed on Danbooru even if the artwork were worse than this.
Or, in other words, I'm saying that, in the same way that olympic divers are measured on both the technical proficiency they demonstrate in their dive as well as the degree of difficulty of the dive in the first place in aggregate, the content and quality of artwork should be judged in aggregate.
Besides which, as I said before, this clearly is not a case of terrible artwork, and instead a method of abusing the tagging system to try to delete fetishes the particular person tagging for deletion didn't like.
Personally, I never really liked Aya, does that qualify me to go around tagging every Aya picture for deletion because of "terrible art"? Allowing this sort of abuse of the rules where anyone can get whatever they want pulled off Danbooru if they just try with enough determination or with a few friends practically guarantees a war of reciprocity.
NWSiaCB said: I'm saying that there's a different standard for dialogue-based doujins than there is for standalone art pieces, because content and art quality can be measured in aggregate.
No. That is absolutely counter to how things work here. Everything should be good in and of itself, period.
NWSiaCB said: There's reason for doujins with an interesting storyline to be allowed on Danbooru even if the artwork were worse than this.
Yes, that reason is some people aren't doing their job's right.
NWSiaCB said: Besides which, as I said before, this clearly is not a case of terrible artwork
You can believe that if you want. You seem set, so I don't suppose it's worth my time to try and dissuade you.
ShadowbladeEdge said: No. That is absolutely counter to how things work here. Everything should be good in and of itself, period.
Yes, that reason is some people aren't doing their job's right.
Your entire idea of what people are capable of enjoying is completely wrong.
There isn't any reason why Danbooru should ban any sort of series-based images, which is exactly why we have so many pools with doujins or 4-koma series in them.
Further, a huge number of users of Danbooru enjoy the site specifically to see webcomic 4-koma or doujins. To suddenly declare no 4 komas were worthwhile unless they could contain whatever story they had into one image would destroy much of the reason most people come to Danbooru in the first place for the only particular reason to be to fulfill your own arbitrary, self-defeating notions of purity.
Worse, people come to Danbooru to browse images or doujin series, not to participate in the constant flamewars people like you are spreading.
Images like these are not a problem on Danbooru, it's the constant flamewars over what is or isn't allowed that is the problem on Danbooru.
While this is not my cup of tea, and the art is somewhat simple, I do believe is is far from "Terrible".
Basically the same what I said on another image applies here as well. Flags without a detailed explanation what is wrong are pretty useless. It gives the impression the user who flagged the image just hates the artist, fetish, ...
ShadowbladeEdge said: No. That is absolutely counter to how things work here. Everything should be good in and of itself, period.
But it makes absolutely no sense to allow 19 pages of a 20-page-doujin and delete the remaining one. This would be as if I go to a library to read a book just to find out that in the middle of the book a page was ripped out. Asking the librarian he would answer <<Yes that page was ripped out because the quality was worse than the rest of the book>>.
Another reason why this and other images should stay is that it has already been translated. A translator invested time and effort to translate this page and it would be completely wasted if the page was deleted. If I was a translator this would make it much less likely that I would translate other images in the future if it is possible that I waste all the time and effort because the image gets deleted after an arbitrary amount of time.
All of the people who are defending this series, I have a question for you: if there are so many reasons why this comic should stay on the site, then why hasn't it been reapproved yet?
feline_lump said: All of the people who are defending this series, I have a question for you: if there are so many reasons why this comic should stay on the site, then why hasn't it been reapproved yet?
If that's the game you want to play, then why was this series approved in the first place? I remember this series having a blue border.
Why do so many series, even good series that are generally well-liked, that simply run on long enough tend to have a few images that are not approved in three days, and have to get approved in appeal?
The moderation here is neither infallible nor lightning-swift.
Everything in the past week, in fact, has told me that the entire system of flagging or approval in the first place are so heavily skewed by the biases or double-standards of the individual people looking at the images that the entire system should probably be under review.
The basis of that argument is that if a mod says so, it must be the infallible truth, but I don't see terribly much faith in the system. In fact, the most recent flamewar had more to do with how the janitor responded to being question than the actual quality of anything being deleted, and it seems pretty clear that not many people at all still trust the judgment of the janitors on one side of that argument or the other.
NWSiaCB said: If that's the game you want to play, then why was this series approved in the first place? I remember this series having a blue border.
Some people approve Touhou comics just because they are Touhou comics. It causes flag/appeal wars like this one sometimes, but it looks like it's just something we're going to have to live with.
Everything in the past week, in fact, has told me that the entire system of flagging or approval in the first place are so heavily skewed by the biases or double-standards of the individual people looking at the images...
I've seen some obvious bias in the approval process as well, but if it means deleting terrible fetish comics like this one, then that's the way it should be.
Besides, it's not as if paragraphs upon paragraphs of debate among regular users is going to change anything at all. That's what I was getting at in my first comment, in fact.
feline_lump said: All of the people who are defending this series, I have a question for you: if there are so many reasons why this comic should stay on the site, then why hasn't it been reapproved yet?
To be honest: I don't like that series at all. BUT: 1) I'm against deleting pages / images arbitrarily after they stayed approved for months or years because of the reasons I mentioned in my above comment. 2) That it was approved in the first place and that it stayed approved until recently shows in my opinion that in fact there are people who like it.
NWSiaCB said: The moderation here is neither infallible nor lightning-swift.
Everything in the past week, in fact, has told me that the entire system of flagging or approval in the first place are so heavily skewed by the biases or double-standards of the individual people looking at the images that the entire system should probably be under review.
Because only a few people are allowed to approve / unapprove it will always be biased. But a certain bias probably can't be completely avoided; even if the community as a whole could decide over approvals it would be biased: strange fetishes that are liked by a small number but not liked by the majority would barely have a chance to survive.
The only solution would be to allow everything except stuff that clearly violates the rules (against the law, photos etc.) and not looking at the content or quality. But the risk of too many really bad images is probably to high.
So in the end janitors and moderators are needed. But the community must be able to trust in them and to do that they have to accept the opinion of others even if they do not agree. And in the last week I had the impression that some users don't accept that others might have a different opinion.
feline_lump said: I've seen some obvious bias in the approval process as well, but if it means deleting terrible fetish comics like this one, then that's the way it should be.
If your problem is the content, not the quality, then just skip it. I don't come here to look at XXX porn, so I skip those images, just like I skip gore (again, not my cup of tea). You can do the same as well, and ignore the petrified Reimu in the revealing sex-leotard and the pussy-mouthed Touhou-girls when you come across them. As the meme goes: "Keep calm and keep scrolling/clicking next!"
That said, I agree with NWSiaCB in the moderation system needing an overhaul. Much of it could be automated in the first place, if the mods are willing to rely on the community to some degree. Proper tagging could be used to mark images where viewer discretion is advised, and those faint of heart could opt not to see them, and the only human input needed would be a check for art quality (which, by the way, this series has no lack of). Given that the backend already parses file names of a given structure into tags for the image, such an automated system would be almost trivial to implement in code, and could be used to drop the queue altogether, provided that some interaction by viewers, who add missing tags (like they have the option to do now).
I'll just say that "Terrible art", "Bad quality", "Below standards" are not real motives unless the flagger can specify what is terrible, bad or below quality. If the quality problem cannot be identified, it might actually not exist...
It seems to me that the ability to flag pictures without giving clear reason is too much power to give the users.
feline_lump said: Some people approve Touhou comics just because they are Touhou comics. It causes flag/appeal wars like this one sometimes, but it looks like it's just something we're going to have to live with.
Or not if we get the rules changed.
feline_lump said: I've seen some obvious bias in the approval process as well, but if it means deleting terrible fetish comics like this one, then that's the way it should be.
And this, right here, is exactly the problem.
There are tons of "terrible" fetish comics on Danbooru, but they're just not "terrible" when they're the fetish YOU enjoy.
There are tons of ryona, futa, chubby, yaoi, inflation, loli, etc. porn on this site, but apparently, we have to draw the line at gimp suit petrification. There isn't anything wrong with this image, the artist is simply hated because they did a different series which featured - shock and awe - vaginas in odd places. (Nevermind everyone cheers when Ao Usagi puts boobs in odd places.)
Further, I have serious trouble understanding how, if the reasoning is so clearly based upon content being "disturbing", rather than just pure art quality, post #1154416 somehow doesn't qualify. (And oh, hey, look, guro necrophiliac yaoi at that: post #1084694 )
Repeated statements of "saying there's worse is not an acceptable argument" is fine as a rule IF you are going to be trying to apply judgment evenly, and you simply haven't gotten around to the "worse" yet.
What "saying there's worse is not an acceptable argument" has become, however, is just an excuse to protect the mod's personal pet fetishes and favorite characters or series, while only applying the rules to the ones that are their personal unfavorites.
Sigfried666 said: It seems to me that the ability to flag pictures without giving clear reason is too much power to give the users.
Can't agree more, saw a picture being flagged not long ago with the reason: "Gay". I bet it wasn't made by a moderator. Even something as open minded as wikipedia doesn't allow mere users to delete whole pages and they can only request them to be reviewed and only gets erased after checking the validity of said request.
Anyone can flag an image. But that doesn't mean the image will be deleted unless the janitors let it go through. A terrible flag like the aforementioned "Gay" flag (which didn't go through, by the way) is improper flagging etiquette and probably deserves a neg. But if an image is deleted with a stupid or vague flag, that is because the mods looked at it and decided it wasn't worth approving, just like how any other image gets auto-deleted in the initial mod queue. Not because someone called it "Gay".
If you want to argue that we need to foster better flagging etiquette, then fine - if it'll prevent some of these flame wars, then more power to it. But dumb or vague flags do not mean the images were deleted for a dumb or vague reason. What ultimately decides if an image stays or goes is the same mod-reviewed process as the initial approval, not just because some anonymous joe thinks the content is gross or whatever. (And heck, vague flags are probably detrimental to a flagger's purposes anyway, since being so vague could mean a mod doesn't see what they thought was so offensive and reapproves the image.)
Flaggers are also now visible to janitor rank and above, meaning anyone who attempts to abuse the system by repeatedly flagging an approved image can be identified and disciplined.
JEFFR draws things that are reprehensible, but he is a very skilled artist and has many fans. He also draws more than just gore-porn - in fact, his tamer stuff regularly attracts some very positive scores.
The amount of disgusting Ao Usagi images can be counted on one hand. Most of his drawings are legitimately good (not counting his oldest ones) and are clever in some way, and even the disgusting ones are still well-drawn. His running gag of drawing breasts where they don't belong is done tastefully and humorously, and I have a hard time believing that any Danbooru user would be offended by it.
Sukedai is nothing more than a troll artist. It is abundantly clear that he is only drawing to disgust people - there is no possible way that any sane human would have all of the fetishes he portrays. His comics go out of their way to show the most disgusting details possible, any sort of plot or other artistic merit isn't touched upon at all. The sexual content he draws is very extreme and most certainly not comparable to the many accepted fetishes on this site, unless you can find another well-respected artist on this site that has drawn a prepubescent bunny harlequin girl giving a blowjob to a teenage girl with three penises.
A significant amount of his non-comic art has been silently downvoted and deleted - including a relatively inoffensive and run-of-the-mill piece of porn, proving that his art isn't just being deleted out of bias. Danbooru users seemed to unanimously hate him until this little debacle.
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It should also be noted that, in the past, sequential comic pools on this site have been an all-or-nothing matter. Nobody is asking for this page to be removed because a petrified girl in a fetish suit is over the line, but because a significant amount of content in this pool really is over the line, and this page wouldn't make any sense out of context.
feline lump said: Sukedai is nothing more than a troll artist. It is abundantly clear that he is only drawing to disgust people - there is no possible way that any sane human would have all of the fetishes he portrays.
I'll chalk up the entire bulk of this comment section.
We all have likes and dislikes. Some of you can't fathom the concept of viewing the picture and want to destroy it. People must really be tying their underclothing extra-tight bunched knots this season. None of you are forced to view a picture, and that's that. However, comments voice opinions. Opinions are never facts, unless there's some support for it.
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Do you have a dislike for something? Much like Google, Blacklist is your best friend.
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I've seen a picture that was deleted from one flagging, what's worse is that over 10+ appeals were with it, and it was still removed. ___
.............................Humanity makes me chuckle very often sometimes from an outside point of view of all this madness. Anyways, if you want less of a flagging issue, flock to lu.scio.us, I'm sure you can enjoy that place more if it's too much of a problem. ___
although no one cares anyways and will just inevitably flag it because they can and give a false reason. After all, it's the internet. Don't let me have to remind people about the comments I saw on Depthbomb's work stating how people wanted to rape, maim and torture the artist for the pictures of fictional characters dying or mutaliated. Just hilarious, pitiful, pathetic, and highly amusing. Speinkle a little salt of hypocriay and double standards and you get this. Also, flag wars have begun ladies and Non-ladies, let the games begin.....Amuse me.Updating Grid Location: post #1097407 ___ That would be the one I'm referring to with the removal issue.
Maybe I'll repsond to some of this other stuff later, but this has become a real morass, so maybe not. I just wanted to hit this real quick.
NWSiaCB said: Your entire idea of what people are capable of enjoying is completely wrong.
I never said that people couldn't enjoy this, that's obviously not the case. What I said was it doesn't belong on Danbooru. Danbooru is a site meant for high-quality, visual, Japan based art first and foremost. Everything else is incidental, that includes your, or anyone's, enjoyment. If we worked along the line of "If someone can enjoy it, it stays," we'd be some piece of trash like Rule34.
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EDIT:
NWSiaCB said: There isn't any reason why Danbooru should ban any sort of series-based images,
I don't know where you're pulling this from. No one ever suggested anything like that.
SD-DAken said: Flags without a detailed explanation what is wrong are pretty useless.
That's not really true, not imo anyway. I mean the only reason I usually look at actual the flag/appeal reason is because sometimes they're funny. Otherwise I just judge whether I want to approve it or not like any other image in the queue. I mean we approve or don't all those other posts with anyone's help, this isn't really that different. I'm not saying more well written flags would be bad, I wish I was more well-spoken in this case for example, but they're not necessary.
SD-DAken said: But it makes absolutely no sense to allow 19 pages of a 20-page-doujin and delete the remaining one.
Well the most simple counter to this is we're not a doujin site, so we don't care. There is the often mis-used "part of a pool" appeal that lets stuff that's on the edge stay in a mostly good pool though.
SD-DAken said: Another reason why this and other images should stay is that it has already been translated. A translator invested time and effort to translate this page and it would be completely wasted if the page was deleted.
Yes, unfortunate. Haowever we also aren't a translation site, so again we don't really care.
NWSiaCB said: then why was this series approved in the first place?
NWSiaCB said: The moderation here is neither infallible
NWSiaCB said: the entire system of flagging or approval in the first place are so heavily skewed by the biases or double-standards of the individual people looking at the images
This is actually inherent to the system, and we've never made any secret of that. Also it's not really double standards is just that we're not an omnipresent hive mind, all the approves have different opinions and none of us sees everything.
SD-DAken said: 1) I'm against deleting pages / images arbitrarily after they stayed approved for months or years
No. We did away with that grandfather clause noise years ago. A post's age has bearing on anything.
ThunderBird said: Proper tagging could be used to mark images where viewer discretion is advised, and those faint of heart could opt not to see them, and the only human input needed would be a check for art quality
So what you're saying is it should be exactly the way it is right now.
NWSiaCB said: Further, I have serious trouble understanding how, if the reasoning is so clearly based upon content being "disturbing"
Again that's not why I flagged these, so the double standard is your construction. Relatedly, I think Ao Usagi is an unfunny hack, but his art is generally good, so that's why I've never flagged any of his stuff. Same for Jeffr, he's fucking crazy and he draws some really abhorrent shit, but he's a fantastic artist.
Illusive said: Even something as open minded as wikipedia doesn't allow mere users to delete whole pages and they can only request them to be reviewed and only gets erased after checking the validity of said request.
That's exactly how flags work, so what's the problem?
Black_Rynex said: I've seen a picture that was deleted from one flagging, what's worse is that over 10+ appeals were with it, and it was still removed.
Flags/appeals aren't a voting system. The number on either side doesn't matter.
It's not simply a case of saying "there's worse so this belongs" like so many who use the excuse. Anyone can choose one or two things here, point to them, and say, these are demonstratably awful, so this deserves to be here, too.
It's about an observable minimum level or threshold of quality and attempting to adhere to it. Is this or that better or worse than most pictures in the same category?
Relying on subjectivity and opinion, we're only human. But when in doubt, such as in this case and others of borderline quality, it's something to be very strongly considered when making a final determination.
Does this mean every image is a winner or even "good" when using this? Not always, but I believe it to be better than the alternative where we might miss out on a lot of enjoyable things just because something isn't technically good and sound. Art isn't always about being technically proficient, after all.
Most wonder about what the "line" is for acceptable versus what should be deleted. Well, no matter what one's opinion of the content is, which shouldn't be a factor since it's not technically against the rules, I believe most of sukedai's work meets the threshold of what we tend to accept.
Really, the only people who should even see why a work is being flagged are janitor+, going from this and other images, it seems to cause undue drama when its freely open.
ShadowbladeEdge said: [...] So what you're saying is it should be exactly the way it is right now. [...]
I was thinking more along the lines of replacing the thumbnail with a warning, or another way of visibly marking them, not just with a tag listing that includes some words like "pussy", "guro", "yaoi", etc. That's not visible enough, and I think that the shock and/or disappointment contributes to such flag/appeal wars.
For an example, see how DeviantArt blanks out such images until the user logs in.
The only way that my saying this sort of post doesn't deserve to be deleted because this art clearly is not terrible, and this art clearly has nothing that otherwise violates the rules would be hypocritical because some people didn't like Depthbomb would be if all the users on Danbooru were in part of a hivemind with me. I never called for anything Depthbomb made to be deleted.
If there were serious threats of all of Depthbomb's works being deleted because a couple people didn't like it, I would go to bat for Depthbomb, as well.
Further, you're only proving the point I made that "there are worse" is simply becoming an excuse not to listen to any more valid complaints, and use janitor/mod prejudice with impunity. It is no longer a valid excuse for your actions when you clearly are just abusing the phrase.
Finally, the point I was making with Jeffr was not that he made terrible art - quite the opposite, obviously, he makes incredibly detailed and well-made art - but that if the standard is "offensive", then we make absolutely everything in the site become up for grabs, as anyone can declare anything as "offensive", just like, apparently, "terrible art" can just be laid down upon any image, regardless of reality.
And the point I was making with Jeffr was that I didn't flag these for being offensive, I don't even think they're that, they're more juvenile than anything. I flagged these because I think the art is bad, if you can't accept that it's your problem.
Now the pool's incomplete, the translators and uploaders wasted their time, the readers who can get a laugh at these comics but can't read japanese will have to move on, just because someone decided to go on a flagging spree.
the post is better than the comment section afai care. And nothing is wasted here. Everyone still can find this.
... can't you just go to Reimu's place or something?That wasn't really my plan. Besides...Huh?!Presented In Celebration of the Opening of Perverted Brainwashing, Gensokyo Branch
Hakurei ReimuLet's resolve this incident together!Has she not thought about the fact that that'll happen to her if she fails...?It looks like they got her, huh?But I feel better now that I've found you!Reimu-san? I saw her in the lobby.