cd_young said: Orin's just doing her job, and Marisa's possessed, she'd normally not get angry over this.
So you're saying denying a dying man's last request while happily saying "Nope too bad! I'm a youkai from hell!" with a smile then then taking his expired body, leaving the man's efforts all for naught, wouldn't enrage Marisa at all? Even a little? I know Kirisame, albeit a thief, is still a noble thief. And as a human being with morals , I don't think she'd be totally apathetic when she actually sees Rin do something like this. I also have a suspicion that Marisa, while not knowing in mind, was still subconsciously still in control if only a fractioned bit. I mean, how were the vengeful soul(s) able to know how to use a darker version of the Master Spark?
THE_GREAT_EQUINOX said: So you're saying denying a dying man's last request while happily saying "Nope too bad! I'm a youkai from hell!" with a smile then then taking his expired body, leaving the man's efforts all for naught, wouldn't enrage Marisa at all? Even a little? I know Kirisame, albeit a thief, is still a noble thief. And as a human being with morals , I don't think she'd be totally apathetic when she actually sees Rin do something like this. I also have a suspicion that Marisa, while not knowing in mind, was still subconsciously still in control if only a fractioned bit. I mean, how were the vengeful soul(s) able to know how to use a darker version of the Master Spark?
Orin's purpose is to collect corpses to feed the furnace of the Hell of Blazing Fire. Nowhere in that does it say she has to do anything for them.
And Marisa'd probably be annoyed at the Yokai being all carefree and stuff, and probably do it herself, or keep the medicine, she'd also have no obligation to complete his task either.
cd_young said: And Marisa'd probably be annoyed at the Yokai being all carefree and stuff, and probably do it herself, or keep the medicine, she'd also have no obligation to complete his task either.
I wouldn't mind being engaged in a healthy discussion about this one. Ethical differences is an interesting topic to talk about. Moral relativism isn't something I subscribe to, but what of humans and non-humans who have completely different ways of reasoning?
What is in it for her to do that? She doesn't have any reason to go to the human village. There aren't any corpses there for her to collect. Unlike humans, Youkai are born into their roles. Orin's is to collect corpses for the furnaces in hell.
Helping people isn't apart of her job. She has to compete with the Shikigami after all.
cd_young said: What is in it for her to do that? She doesn't have any reason to go to the human village. There aren't any corpses there for her to collect. Unlike humans, Youkai are born into their roles. Orin's is to collect corpses for the furnaces in hell.
Helping people isn't apart of her job. She has to compete with the Shikigami after all.
I was talking about the morals again. Even if it isn't a part of her job, she should still help. But this just gets us back to the conclusion that Kaenbyou is a moral-less youkai that harbors not a single remorse or tears for anything.
I guess this is where Youkai like Kaenbyou and humans like Marisa and Reimu differ from each other.
I've been thinking about this issue because I usually judge morality based on reason rather than emotion, since I'm more of a deontologist, and I came to the conclusion that Rin's action wasn't morally upright. Not necessarily immoral, but not good anyway.
The comments on later pages seemed to suggest that she did intend to indirectly fulfil the man's request though. I don't remember well.
Lick_King said: I've been thinking about this issue because I usually judge morality based on reason rather than emotion, since I'm more of a deontologist, and I came to the conclusion that Rin's action wasn't morally upright. Not necessarily immoral, but not good anyway.
The comments on later pages seemed to suggest that she did intend to indirectly fulfil the man's request though. I don't remember well.
THE_GREAT_EQUINOX said: I was talking about the morals again. Even if it isn't a part of her job, she should still help. But this just gets us back to the conclusion that Kaenbyou is a moral-less youkai that harbors not a single remorse or tears for anything.
I guess this is where Youkai like Kaenbyou and humans like Marisa and Reimu differ from each other.
See, here's the problem, you're both applying a human's moral code to a Youkai.
THE_GREAT_EQUINOX said: She should know the concept of just morality. Doesn't her boss work under the Yama?
Satori? No she doesn't. Rin works in the old hell. which is why she's competing with Shinigami for corpses. And she knows what morality is, she just chooses to ignore it since it's a hassle.
cd_young said: See, here's the problem, you're both applying a human's moral code to a Youkai.
No, I'm not. Quite on contrary, I frown upon forcing one's values to others. I'm trying to talk about a moral law that works for both humans and youkai, not just for humans. Not just for youkai either. Because-
Lick_King said: Moral relativism isn't something I subscribe to, but what of humans and non-humans who have completely different ways of reasoning?
And this is what got me thinking. My conclusion is that the way of reasoning itself can never be different, but the difference in human and youkai logic arise from the different sets of basic beliefs they base their reasoning on. (Think of a program that adds 1 to any number you type. If you type 2, it gives you 3. If you type 100, it gives you 101. The reasoning process is the same, but the resulting conclusions are different because the empirical base material is different.)
And since deontology is a strictly reason-based way of judging morality, with the empirical input like the situation and identity of the doer playing no hand, I think it can work universally to both humans and youkai. And here, by refusing to show the 'good will' of granting the man's dying wish, she's showing the lack of morality. Notice that, like I mentioned, lack of morality doesn't equate to immorality. Just that she's less good than she could have been. Put another way, while Rin's decision isn't morally good, it's not something to be enraged about either.
(Above comment was based on my knowledge on deontology and Kantian ethics, but to be honest I'm not thorough with it. I may well have made plenty of mistakes up there.)
cd_young said: Satori? No she doesn't. Rin works in the old hell. which is why she's competing with Shinigami for corpses. And she knows what morality is, she just chooses to ignore it since it's a hassle.
Ignoring morality by not applying it in thinking. That's rage inducing. She knows of morality but willfully ignores it. Isn't that what an evil person does? Like I said, she's an evil, moral void creature. She also seems to enjoy crushing the hopes of her victims. Look at that damn smile. I'd be as pissed off as much as Marisa, who I still say was still in partial control of her actions, if only subconsciously.
Lick_King said: And this is what got me thinking. My conclusion is that the way of reasoning itself can never be different, but the difference in human and youkai logic arise from the different sets of basic beliefs they base their reasoning on. (Think of a program that adds 1 to any number you type. If you type 2, it gives you 3. If you type 100, it gives you 101. The reasoning process is the same, but the resulting conclusions are different because the empirical base material is different.)
But if youkais operate on a different way of reasoning, your entire basis is inherently flawed. If you don't believe/subscribe/accept that idea, you're automatically judging Rin based on human morality standards which would inherently define her as "immoral".
THE_GREAT_EQUINOX said: Ignoring morality by not applying it in thinking. That's rage inducing. She knows of morality but willfully ignores it. Isn't that what an evil person does?
Not exactly. Lack of morality doesn't equate to immorality or evil. (Don't give me situational arguments please.)
MMaestro said: But if youkais operate on a different way of reasoning, your entire basis is inherently flawed. If you don't believe/subscribe/accept that idea, you're automatically judging Rin based on human morality standards which would inherently define her as "immoral".
I don't think it's possible for the reasoning process to be different depending on who carries it out. The 'way of thinking' is different however because their values are different. (A youkai and a human won't disagree on whether 1+1 is 2.) That's why I said, a universal set of reasoning-based morality that works for humans and youkai alike. Hence my support for deontology.
Did I not make it clear enough in that comment, actually?
Thinking back, however, Rin and humans may disagree on whether granting a death wish is really something 'good'. If there's a difference there, then that's the difference in morality, and that's where human and youkai thinking differ.
Lick_King said: I don't think it's possible for the reasoning process to be different depending on who carries it out. The 'way of thinking' is different however because their values are different. (A youkai and a human won't disagree on whether 1+1 is 2.) That's why I said, a universal set of reasoning-based morality that works for humans and youkai alike. Hence my support for deontology.
But you're still falling back onto the same problem. You're assuming humans and youkai share a universally accepted set of reason-based morality. You and I, as humans, may believe that 1+1=2, but Rin, as a youkai, could believe 1+1=100 and both sides would think that the other is wrong.
MMaestro said: But you're still falling back onto the same problem. You're assuming humans and youkai share a universally accepted set of reason-based morality. You and I, as humans, may believe that 1+1=2, but Rin, as a youkai, could believe 1+1=100 and both sides would think that the other is wrong.
Ah, I see. That'd be a more skepticism-based doubt on the validity of reasoning. To correct your comment slightly, I'm making the assumption that reasoning doesn't differ between humans and youkai, which leads me to the conclusion that reasoning-based morality would also be universal.
I have no say about the basis of that. Actually, that's a foundational belief that can't be confirmed. If a human and a youkai may have different reasoning, then the same could happen between two humans almost as easily. There's no reason that the difference should be confined to biological race, right? Humans all over the world, brought up with vastly different cultures and ways of thinking, still have a universal process of reasoning, after all. Anyway, so far I believe such difference in reasoning process itself has never been observed, making the likelihood of its possibility quite low.
Also, while I can't prove that humans and youkai do have a different way of reasoning, the same would be said to its opposite. With both assumptions being equally falsifiable, I think we should try to think of all possibilities rather than trying to reject either.
THE_GREAT_EQUINOX said: So she is just scum youkai who lacks of morality?
The way she handles the dying humans and the souls, that's not evil?
I can't answer that. I actually should acknowledge that I tend to be too generous.
However, I can say that the only thing in the world that I do hate and call evil is arrogance. If you trace back from almost all wrongful actions, you'll find arrogance to be at the center. That's what I think anyway. As for Rin, I can't tell whether she's being arrogant here. And if she acknowledges that she can't blame anyone if someone does the same to her, then in my views, she's not just not immoral but actually morally justified.
Worldend_Dominator said: This is why the poor nun's dreams of peaceful equality will never be.
And there's also the problem of dilemmas. That's the hidden but the biggest bitch of all. You just can't help it. Everybody in the world can be saints but there will still be manmade tragedies.
Ideals and reality are vastly different, and painfully so.
I'll first admit that I have yet to read the entire doujin, but here's my two cents regarding Rin's action. Do note that I am of science background, and my "logic" may greatly clash with those of humanitarian background.
Instead of focusing on morality/thought process in general, let's look at species. Rin is a youkai, whereas that man is a human. Most youkais feed on "some thing" of humans, and generally see them as a source of food. Therefore, it isn't too much of a stretch to compare the conversation to one between bees and human. There are three types of bees: worker, forager and matriarch. Matriarch aside, both workers and foragers wear themselves out in order to prepare food for winter/stuff but mankind has been devastating their home without a second thought to their well-being since stone age. Although our treatment has significantly improved, (we keep them alive now) the reason behind such improvement does not lie in ethics; we let them live, so they can make more honey for us. For non-scientists, regular people tend to swat (or try to) a bee as soon as they are within sight. While it is understandable (dem stingers hurt muy macho), bees don't actually sting unless they are aggravated/surprised.
Oh man, I totally got off topic here. I actually have test regarding bees in couple days, so I guess I regurgitated my "knowledge". Anyway, the point I am trying to get at is the relationship between two species is that of the hunter and its prey. Just like we give no second thought to bees, why should Rin care about what her "food" has to say?
P.S. sorry if it doesn't make any sense... it's late and eye are sreepie...
Lick_King said: Also, while I can't prove that humans and youkai do have a different way of reasoning, the same would be said to its opposite. With both assumptions being equally falsifiable, I think we should try to think of all possibilities rather than trying to reject either.
But we can reasonable prove that youkai have different reasoning. (In this case) Rin is a kasha and the purpose of a kasha is to carry away the corpses of the diseased to Hell. If thats the case, we reasonably accept that Rin does not hold the same beliefs about the sanctity(?) of a human corpse because she views at it as food or cargo (either to eat or burn in Hell).
In that case, we (as humans) may view that as immoral, but Rin (as a kasha) may view it as merely fulfilling her duty.
MMaestro said: But we can reasonable prove that youkai have different reasoning. (In this case) Rin is a kasha and the purpose of a kasha is to carry away the corpses of the diseased to Hell. If thats the case, we reasonably accept that Rin does not hold the same beliefs about the sanctity(?) of a human corpse because she views at it as food or cargo (either to eat or burn in Hell).
In that case, we (as humans) may view that as immoral, but Rin (as a kasha) may view it as merely fulfilling her duty.
No, not that. That's the difference in fundamental beliefs that, when processed through the same methods, give different conclusions. Notice that I've been continuously differentiating "reasoning" and "way of reasoning".
...Shit man, it's really getting difficult to talk about this. I should study harder if I want to talk more in this discussion. My morality essay was bullshit and was returned with horrible marks, too.
Pardon me, I'm finding it hard to continue with the discussion due to my own lack of competency. I'll stay dormant for some time. Just when I was quite happy with having this discussion....
More importantly, don't tell Lady Satori we met up here today.That I'm sneaking out and coming to play around....do you understand them, and still not feel heartache?Or...Okay, please?My reply alone isn't gonna tell you much.Heya, missy. What's the point of askin' me that?
