Raigeki said: Oh crap. Mima doesn't seem very happy in that last panel there.
Oh wow, Shinki fainted.
Of course Mima's not happy, yet another one of her plans to defeat the Hakurei has failed. However, Marisa's speech did seem to make the audience realize that they hate Reimu, so Mima may gain more underlings. I'm hoping that Mima sticks around and tries to sabotage Reimu's next fight.
Also, who else wants Shinki to wake up in full blown angry goddess mode?
It wouldn't even be so bad of a result (even if I wanted Marisa/Nitor to win) if not for the implication that Reimu was never actually pushed the whole match at all and was just feigning any vulnerability she had shown at all.
Note to self: Next time you try to win a game of chess against a superior opponent by hitting him with the chessboard and kicking him in the groin, remember to win over the audience with a heart-wrenching speech about how shitty chess player I am and how that somehow gives me the moral high ground to do so, appealing to all the shitty chess players amongst them who have lost to my opponent in the past.
Heparine said: Note to self: Next time you try to win a game of chess against a superior opponent by hitting him with the chessboard and kicking him in the groin, remember to win over the audience with a heart-wrenching speech about how shitty chess player I am and how that somehow gives me the moral high ground to do so, appealing to all the shitty chess players amongst them who have lost to my opponent in the past.
I have only one thing to say to fans like you.
THAT'S YOUR OPINION AND WHILE I DO NOT AGREE WITH IT OR SHARE IT, I RECOGNIZE AND RESPECT YOUR RIGHT TO IT
Kryptik said: It wouldn't even be so bad of a result (even if I wanted Marisa/Nitor to win) if not for the implication that Reimu was never actually pushed the whole match at all and was just feigning any vulnerability she had shown at all.
They focused the bulk of their preparations and offensive on Remi and she was actually broken down. And I don't think Reimu was faking throughout the entire match, but only at the end when she pretended to have lost it.
Red 75% is a strong team without any real weakpoints it seems. Unlike most teams, where there is a carry that practically has to win on their own, both Remi and Reimu are individually dangerous.
Zaku_Zelo said: I still can't get over how crushingly disappointing the end to that match was.
Yeah, agreed. Regardless of it being somewhat "realistic" (in that Reimu and Remilia are just ungodly genius/powerful) I felt that this fight just didn't have the pacing, build up, finish or whatever that some of the others did. Particularly for how much I was anticipating it, I found it really disappointing. Hopefully dei shirou recovers a bit of mojo after this and gets back into the swing of things with the next few fights, because some of the previous ones were excellent. Whatever the reason though I felt this one stumbled.
angrybull said: Also, who else wants Shinki to wake up in full blown angry goddess mode?
Just you. OK, clearly some people keep bring up "omg Mima/Shinki go nuts!!!?!" but I think that's always been dumb, would be out of character and wouldn't work anyway. That people keep repeating it in comments every single comic for the last few times I personally feel has gotten irritating. Get over it.
Heparine said: Note to self: Next time you try to win a game of chess against a superior opponent by hitting him with the chessboard and kicking him in the groin, remember to win over the audience with a heart-wrenching speech about how shitty chess player I am and how that somehow gives me the moral high ground to do so, appealing to all the shitty chess players amongst them who have lost to my opponent in the past.
except they were playing under the rules (unlike the analogy presented above), and the chess pieces weren't even.
Marisa's speech's purpose wasn't for gaining moral ground, it was meant (mostly) for turning the environment a bit more favorable. It's not against any rules, either.
I agree, though, that Marisa's strategy was fail, not for the means, but for the flaws. Maybe it's the artist's intent to show that - they could at least take out Remi - Reimu is just as boring invincible as Tenshi is (okay, subjectiveness apart, Byakuren shouldn't have lost that match. She was way too powerful before and during the match, only to be tanked like that.)
I hope that this series follow the example of SNES' Tae Kwon Do game, which has two tournaments in a row, with Reimu as the final boss instead :V (anyone who has played or seen it, know how the final match starts)
Heparine said: Note to self: Next time you try to win a game of chess against a superior opponent by hitting him with the chessboard and kicking him in the groin, remember to win over the audience with a heart-wrenching speech about how shitty chess player I am and how that somehow gives me the moral high ground to do so, appealing to all the shitty chess players amongst them who have lost to my opponent in the past.
I completely agree with this opinion. Just because a random chance put you against an opponent you don't have a real chance to defeat doesn't permit you to try anything to win.
megaolix said: Just because a random chance put you against an opponent you don't have a real chance to defeat doesn't permit you to try anything to win.
That's a crucial part of Marissa's personality in this series though. She cheats, steals, and does whatever it takes. Otherwise, why bother trying to stand up against a vampire and godhax?
megaolix said: I completely agree with this opinion. Just because a random chance put you against an opponent you don't have a real chance to defeat doesn't permit you to try anything to win.
Meanwhile, I completely agree with http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html#comment14609601 ^ this opinion instead. If you're too bound by subjective rules of honor, you're not really playing a game, but a variation of a game where it has these rules of honor. (btw they *should* try anything to win, within the game's rules. Please read the article and understand it, then decide if you still disagree.)
Eh, the tactics used seemed more like "Throw everything at them and hope something sticks", that and they weren't able to keep up the pressure on one to make them buckle. But at least such resistance is more understandable than the sudden levels in strength/durability Friendly Fire pulled out of their asses.
shadowbringer said: Meanwhile, I completely agree with http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html#comment14609601 ^ this opinion instead. If you're too bound by subjective rules of honor, you're not really playing a game, but a variation of a game where it has these rules of honor. (btw they *should* try anything to win, within the game's rules. Please read the article and understand it, then decide if you still disagree.)
Yes, I understand what is being said there. And if Marisa's tricks hadn't got so out of hand, maybe I would have supported her a bit. But one the other end, think of things like sports tournament, like tennis: Some have their first round against big names. Do they give up? Do tehy stretch the rules as much as possible? No. And sometimes, you even see them get surprising everyone by winning.
Besides, your article also mention that cheating too much can destroy the fun of the game. What do you think would have happened if Marisa won? It would have meant others teams would have opened their own bag of tricks against Marisa. Suika and Sakuya's team would have kept Alice and Patchouli busy with the Koa horde. Public support would have been with Tenshi and Okuu if they fought against them. Suwako would never let herself be pushed as much as Remilia did before letting loose. And fighting Kaguya and Mokou supported by Eirin and Tewi? No contest.
Basically, I say Marisa had no chance to win again even if they won here. And that's the best-case scenario: that the other steams would only fight Marisa's team with their own tricks.
Also, something to note: Apart from Suika and Sakuya, all the teams in regular matches who started this night and fought against a team that participated in the first round got eliminated.
StriderTuna said: Eh, the tactics used seemed more like "Throw everything at them and hope something sticks", that and they weren't able to keep up the pressure on one to make them buckle. But at least such resistance is more understandable than the sudden levels in strength/durability Friendly Fire pulled out of their asses.
They forgot to use the handcuffs. It was a fatal flaw in their planning.
Either that or forgetting that Remilia could bat poof.
Well I share the same feeling Mima, but be careful the plot armor in this comic is very strong fighting with Reimu or Sanae will only mean to suffer defeat something that I really, REALLY don't want to happen to Mima-sama and/or Shinki.
aselus1111 said: Well I share the same feeling Mima, but be careful the plot armor in this comic is very strong fighting with Reimu or Sanae will only mean to suffer defeat something that I really, REALLY don't want to happen to Mima-sama and/or Shinki.
I seriously wish the plot armor talk would just stop. It's like it will always be called on the winner, whatever happened.
megaolix said: Yes, I understand what is being said there. And if Marisa's tricks hadn't got so out of hand, maybe I would have supported her a bit. But one the other end, think of things like sports tournament, like tennis: Some have their first round against big names. Do they give up? Do tehy stretch the rules as much as possible? No. And sometimes, you even see them get surprising everyone by winning.
Besides, your article also mention that cheating too much can destroy the fun of the game. What do you think would have happened if Marisa won? It would have meant others teams would have opened their own bag of tricks against Marisa. Suika and Sakuya's team would have kept Alice and Patchouli busy with the Koa horde. Public support would have been with Tenshi and Okuu if they fought against them. Suwako would never let herself be pushed as much as Remilia did before letting loose. And fighting Kaguya and Mokou supported by Eirin and Tewi? No contest.
Basically, I say Marisa had no chance to win again even if they won here. And that's the best-case scenario: that the other steams would only fight Marisa's team with their own tricks.
Also, something to note: Apart from Suika and Sakuya, all the teams in regular matches who started this night and fought against a team that participated in the first round got eliminated.
there's not much ground for "stretching rules" in Tennis (as in stalling games which have a time limit when you're winning, etc.), but still, studying your tournament's opponents/favorites is common practice at high level play. In lots of team/single player games, there's a lot of virtues being required from a player, and lots of weak points to be worked around. Strategy, reactions, self-control, stamina (and how to conserve it more efficiently -- technique), how to play in manners which give you safer/more viable options, increasing the reward potential and decreasing unnecessary risky moves (playfield usage, foresight, how to avoid getting into potentially bad situations). In terms of potential for "stretching rules", Tennis would be penalizing enough for trying to do so, and there aren't many ways to even "stretch" the rules on it. So, "honorable play" there is more due to the lack of more *viable* options than due to idealism. If you get (either by accident or by setting up) your opponent in a situation where he/she's close to the middle, and you can lobby over him/her (which would "dishonorably" not give the opponent any way to reach the ball in time), wouldn't you?
>> Besides, your article also mention that cheating too much can destroy the fun of the game.
that's a common misunderstanding. Sirlin has already explained his Akuma example in a reply to someone else, saying that Akuma, being the unexpectedly overpowering character which causes such an imbalance to Super Turbo ( see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kx2oevVXrH8 ), would leave competitive players one option (the most optimal one): to just use Akuma (and thus increasing their chances to win), leaving most of the other characters out due to natural selection. This isn't a player's fault, it's the game's. Such a rare case is then regulated in tournaments (it's a written rule, in tournaments which have it, which the participants know and choose to abide to it, or not play in the tournament) as bans due to being so overpowering that they severely limit the game's viable options and depth. Not because exploring the depth of a game "makes games unfun". And Marisa's team wasn't even cheating, to begin with, or else they would receive some sort of penalty.
In Sirlin's words, the meaning would be to enjoy the good remainder of the game, which is deep, not shallow (depth keeps a game interesting even after you've played for a while, as you're still learning new things about it. Shallowness, as in, having the game's depth exhausted so soon, also makes a game unfun/uninteresting, and having only one viable character such as ST's Akuma greatly reduces the game's depth and viable options).
Other teams opening their bag of tricks would be more than welcome, for me. Strategy is beautiful to my eyes, as much as seeing people do their best, which is how imho opponents should play "respectfully": by doing their best, using everything they know. Trust me, or at least think about it, when I say that it's fun when there are so many elements when playing a game, which you must consider when making decisions against another player with just as good grasp of the gameplay mechanics/potential as yours. (think of the opposite, for example, Tic-Tac-Toe, and then read this: http://www.raphkoster.com/gaming/theoryoffun.shtml -- the link to the PDF file wasn't working at the time I posted this link, so, try to get the PDF if/when you can. )
Fact is, this cannot be represented with either chess or a game of tennis. It's like having one side having both the queens, or one side having a partner that's a cripple or wearing having chains on his legs (Forcefield > Marisa's magic power).
That said, even with all those disadvantages, they put up a good (Okay, interesting) fight.
Side Note: Byakuren could have won against Tenshi, though I think more would hate it when their next opponents exploited her weakness and let her tire herself out before taking her down.
F.I.A said: Fact is, this cannot be represented with either chess or a game of tennis. It's like having one side having both the queens, or one side having a partner that's a cripple or wearing having chains on his legs (Forcefield > Marisa's magic power).
That said, even with all those disadvantages, they put up a good (Okay, interesting) fight.
Side Note: Byakuren could have won against Tenshi, though I think more would hate it when their next opponents exploited her weakness and let her tire herself out before taking her down.
They did indeed put up a valiant effort, though I was iffy on them winning because of the fact they wouldn't win the match afterwards for various reasons.
randomness said: They forgot to use the handcuffs. It was a fatal flaw in their planning.
Either that or forgetting that Remilia could bat poof.
I'm not sure if that would have worked this time as they learned from the ghost/rabbit match. I do think however that if Marisa and Nitori took things more seriously sooner, that things might have been different.
- Reimu is just as boring invincible as Tenshi is (okay, subjectiveness apart, Byakuren shouldn't have lost that match. She was way too powerful before and during the match, only to be tanked like that.)
I can't believe that we're now getting people that don't like that match. And I have no idea why, we have people complaining about all the other matches, why not the one almost everyone has called the best of them all? Why the complaint? The match was the most balanced, no-bullshit match in the entire comic.
How is Tenshi like Reimu? In canon people organized a party just so they could beat her up and she lost to almost everyone that was in that game at one point or another and in fanon she's more often than not portrayed as a masochist aka "The butt monkey" of Touhou. Her and Okuu in this comic have been portrayed as a few eggs short of a dozen most of the time so they aren't like the tactically aloof Reimu and they aren't all rounders either, Okuu has offense but seems to get hurt easily (Even if she over exaggerates how much) while Tenshi has defense and a decent offense. Both Tenshi and Okuu are in this game to have fun so they aren't like (Aside from Team Moriya) the other teams in that they have a goal that they'll do what makes the most sense, what I mean is, aside from Sanae, who else in the other teams wouldn't have stalled until Byakuren ran out of gas? Doing so would be the logical choice, while I admire their honor it also means they have something that can put them at a disadvantage against the more driven characters.
Mastine said: I think it's forgone that Reimu/Remi will bein the finals. Question is will we end up with miko vs miko or will Sakuya keep her promise to make it to the end?
Neither of which is a remotely interesting matchup. I hope the inevitable Reimu vs Sanae happens next round, just so we can get it over with.
Magus said: Neither of which is a remotely interesting matchup. I hope the inevitable Reimu vs Sanae happens next round, just so we can get it over with.
Hhm... They'll probably go with the two straight matches for Heaven & Sky Combo first. Even with the time we'll have between the matches to cool down, I don't think Dei will have Red 75% go again after they were the in the last match.
Honestly, when I look at what teams we have left, the only thing that sounds possible is that it'll be Heaven & Sky Combo V.S. Red 75%. I don't think after all the build up from all the way back at the start that Okuu and Tenshi got for getting a place in the tournament is going to end with them only beating one team but the problem here is that they HAVE to face Lost Servants first, and then they'll have to go straight into their next match against Eternal Rivals, after which Team Moriya will fight Red 75%. The problem here is that I don't see Team Moriya winning after they've shown so much of their stuff already so Red 75% wins that one and I know that no one wants to see Kaguya make it to the finals and allot of people are still sore with the Higan Judgment match so even the addition of Mokou doesn't help them much. Plus, to have Kaguya lose to Red 75% would be disapointing since Red 75% doesn't have anyone that stands for a higher virtue in this tournament. Team Moriya has Sanae, Lost Servants has two good people and Heavan & Sky Combo is in this for the fun of it, so those teams are the only ones that would feel satisfying to see Eternal Rivals lose to.
So yeah, the only thing that sounds right to me (Though our dear author could easily throw a curve ball) is this.
randomness said: Sanae isn't entirely virtuous. The Tabasco spitting thing that Suwako did was Sanae's idea initially.
I don't think Sanae did that out of malice but rather a misguided notion of what wrestling is about. Don't forget that she was influenced by actual japanese wrestling.
Than again that's Sanae these days: Well meaning but TERRIBLY misguided.
F.I.A said: Fact is, this cannot be represented with either chess or a game of tennis. It's like having one side having both the queens, or one side having a partner that's a cripple or wearing having chains on his legs (Forcefield > Marisa's magic power).
This has nothing to do with anything, but I thought I'd mention that one side having two queens while the other has none is a thing that happens sometimes in chess.
SpecterVonBaren said: I can't believe that we're now getting people that don't like that match. And I have no idea why, we have people complaining about all the other matches, why not the one almost everyone has called the best of them all? Why the complaint? The match was the most balanced, no-bullshit match in the entire comic.
Well, you see, Byakuren was already a fan favorite character, but now she has become a triple fan favorite by associating with Marisa and with PC98 characters. Therefore any match in which Byakuren loses is a terrible fight where the winner is a stupid boring character and probably evil too.
SpecterVonBaren said: So yeah, the only thing that sounds right to me (Though our dear author could easily throw a curve ball) is this.
Heaven & Sky Combo V.S. Red 75% I have no freaking clue.
Does anyone else have any predictions?
Sure, I'll bite.
I think one of the main things to keep in mind for predicting victors is motivation. In this tournament, generally speaking, circumstances seem to conspire to help people accomplish what they set out to do, so the people who lose tend to be the ones who either have no clearly-defined goal or who can accomplish their goals without winning. Yuuka got to inflict her daily dose of sadism, Reisen and Youmu got their mistresses' respect, Chen got to leave as quickly as possible, Patchy and Alice both got to be Marisa's partners, Orin and Yuugi got Okuu into the tournament...
This is bad news for Heaven & Sky Combo, consisting of two people who just wanted to be able to participate, and Team Moriya, who are in it more for the attention than the victory. It's a mixed blessing for Lost Servants. It's good for Scarlet 75% and Eternal Rivals, thanks to Marisa (unintentionally) and Keine respectively.
Predictions for next round's matchups: Scarlet 75% vs. Team Moriya Rematch winner (Heaven & Sky or Lost Servants) vs. Eternal Rivals
Victory predictions: Heaven & Sky vs. Lost Servants As much as I personally want to see Tenshi and Okuu make it to the finals, I think this is the more likely outcome. All four participants will walk out of the ring happy, I think.
Scarlet 75% vs. Team Moriya Likely to be a good matchup despite reader whining. Team Moriya goes out as in-universe fan favorites. Because of that, Scarlet 75% looks even worse through no fault of their own. Or possibly minor fault in the form of Remilia going overboard in her effort to "avenge" her sister and gatekeeper.
Lost Servants vs. Eternal Rivals This was a tough one. Either outcome wastes some story potential, given the SDM setup and Eternal Rivals' status as the only heels left in the tournament from the readers' POV. The advantage of this scenario is that Sakuya almost getting to fight Remilia, but failing at the final moment, has some story potential in of itself.
Final round: Scarlet 75% vs. Eternal Rivals Eternal Rivals wins the match, but Scarlet 75% "win" the story. Everything Kaguya has done throughout the entire series seems to be setting her up for a fall, and I expect it to be a spectacular one. How better to pull this off than the Chick Hicks effect? She gets her victory, her trophy, and her cash, but in some manner that exposes her for what she really is. The contrast improves Reimu's image considerably, especially when she suddenly looks like the underdog against this crazy immortal bitch, and after the tournament ends she finds donations trickling in at a higher rate than before. Remilia's pride has already been satisfied, seeing how everybody put forth so much effort for her sake. And Mokou walks home with the best prizes of all: a happy Keine, and the memory of Kaguya being humiliated.
Andulusi said: This has nothing to do with anything, but I thought I'd mention that one side having two queens while the other has none is a thing that happens sometimes in chess.
You don't seem to understand what I mean. I meant one side starting with both the queens instead of one (And none for the other side). It's pretty much how this match looks like for me.
There is logic in what you say. However there is one thing you overlooked for Heaven & Sky Combo, during the match between Eternal Rivals and Higan Judgment, Tenshi showed dislike for Kaguya and her ways, this kind of thing gives Heaven & Sky Combo more clout for winning against Lost Servants I think since it would either mean Heaven & Sky Combo win against Eternal Rivals or that they leave enough of an impact on Kaguya that she starts getting doubts about how she's been doing these matches.
shadowbringer said: I hope that this series follow the example of SNES' Tae Kwon Do game, which has two tournaments in a row, with Reimu as the final boss instead :V (anyone who has played or seen it, know how the final match starts)
Just you. OK, clearly some people keep bring up "omg Mima/Shinki go nuts!!!?!" but I think that's always been dumb, would be out of character and wouldn't work anyway. That people keep repeating it in comments every single comic for the last few times I personally feel has gotten irritating. Get over it.
If you think that's bad, go back and take a look at Team Moriya vs Scarlet 200%. Literally EVERY.SINGLE.PAGE of that match had a comment saying "OMG! NOW FLAN'S GONNA GET SUPER ANGRY AND THE WORLD'S GONNA EXPLOOOODEEE!" The fanboy levels were off the charts. It got a bit annoying when people were so damn convinced that suddenly Flan was going to go uber and destroy Suwako like she was nothing because they honestly believed Flan > Everyone.
CureMiko said: Then Just a few scenes then Remilia found Reimu trashed around on the recovery room.
This. I am so betting that Reimu is faking being 100% fine, because, as she mentioned earlier, if Marisa makes her look bad, then weaker youkai all over will think they can defeat the Hakurei Miko as long as they say "Screw the Rules, I'll Cheat!" So, she made it look like Marisa's efforts were completely worthless to disavow the weaker youkai of such a notion.
The crowd that Familia has passed through...Amidst the commotion...We're beaten, we're beaten.However...Episode 775: Boiling HeartFrom the Artist's Pixiv page.Unconsciously Exerted Strength...it is a complete victory for Red 75% when it ends....are being seized by a hint of bewilderment.Kirisame Familia has continuously attacked from the beginning till the end in this fourth match.Oh greaaat...Crunch...Red 75% is withdrawing.She has sure reminded me.Damn it...She worried about Alice so much that she faintedAnd when I thought we still had the potential.Miss MimaThat's what a Hakurei shrine maiden is...
