Watch this energy vanish once they take the stairway shortcut lol

Flake456 said:

Watch this energy vanish once they take the stairway shortcut lol

well except for tifa, that girl's got stamina for days.

cd_young said:

well except for tifa, that girl's got stamina for days.

Even Tifa can't handle 60+ flights of stairs, as both versions of FF7 showed.

blindVigil said:

Even Tifa can't handle 60+ flights of stairs, as both versions of FF7 showed.

while true, she lasted longer than either Cloud and Barret and was the least exhausted at the end in the remake.

To think, in the original, the joke was that Cloud was the super human one, something the others found annoying and a little disconcerting. Also gave the player a little thrill trying to run past them after every loading screen, making Cloud seem like a robot by comparison.

Of course, in the Remake, they took that away from us and him. You're forced to stay back with Barret who sounds like he's having a heart attack with every step. All so the player can't peak up Tifa's skirt, despite the fact that she's wearing *spats* in the Remake.

Steak said:

To think, in the original, the joke was that Cloud was the super human one, something the others found annoying and a little disconcerting. Also gave the player a little thrill trying to run past them after every loading screen, making Cloud seem like a robot by comparison.

Of course, in the Remake, they took that away from us and him. You're forced to stay back with Barret who sounds like he's having a heart attack with every step. All so the player can't peak up Tifa's skirt, despite the fact that she's wearing *spats* in the Remake.

Um... cloud was a sickly bean pole that didn't cut the SOLDIER exams and was a regular grunt. Barret is a massive wall of beef that can move quickly but isn't a runner.
Meanwhile, Tifa has been practicing martial arts for at least a decade and has also been regularly working out, but sure Misandry did it.

cd_young said:

Um... cloud was a sickly bean pole that didn't cut the SOLDIER exams and was a regular grunt. Barret is a massive wall of beef that can move quickly but isn't a runner.
Meanwhile, Tifa has been practicing martial arts for at least a decade and has also been regularly working out, but sure Misandry did it.

No? Cloud was a mad science experiment possessed by the friggin' devil. He was an unnatural *FREAK*. That he could look the way he did and still run laps around the likes of Tifa and Barret was the whole point. That this guy is *NOT RIGHT*, but the situation Avalanche found themselves, the very *desperate* struggle, forced them to place their trust in him.

Cloud in the Remake is a complete and utterly worthless joke. They took everything away from him.

And I can't believe you accused me of misandry. Did you not play the original? Did you not realize the clever bait and switch? That Cloud was a cool unstoppable badass and it was all a farce because he was the puppet of a demonspawn with aspirations of godhood? That Cloud was a used and abused ultimately tragic figure forced and manipulated into betraying the ones he cared the most about?

Steak said:

No? Cloud was a mad science experiment possessed by the friggin' devil. He was an unnatural *FREAK*. That he could look the way he did and still run laps around the likes of Tifa and Barret was the whole point. That this guy is *NOT RIGHT*, but the situation Avalanche found themselves, the very *desperate* struggle, forced them to place their trust in him.

Cloud in the Remake is a complete and utterly worthless joke. They took everything away from him.

And I can't believe you accused me of misandry. Did you not play the original? Did you not realize the clever bait and switch? That Cloud was a cool unstoppable badass and it was all a farce because he was the puppet of a demonspawn with aspirations of godhood? That Cloud was a used and abused ultimately tragic figure forced and manipulated into betraying the ones he cared the most about?

I replayed the original recently, actually. Cloud was a failed mako experiment, who, at the very most, was only slightly above the average person physically. He wasn't good enough for SOLDIER, and only qualified for a basic grunt position. You know, those guys you kill hundreds or thousands of over the course of the game.

Avalanche, and more specifically Barret, only had a problem with hiring him because he was ex-Shinra. The only thing anyone really took issue with was his attitude, because he was an awkward aloof "too cool for school" dork. Which itself was a result of the mako experiments frying his brain, followed by him absorbing Zack's memories and forgetting who he even was.

At no point in the game does he really do anything that seems unreasonable for the rest of the cast to emulate. All of his superhuman feats associated with him came from other media, and not his debut game. He's a barely cognitive loser in FF7. He was only pretending to be an unstoppable baddass, until he finally stopped living in Zack's shadow and stood up to Sephiroth.

Steak said:

No? Cloud was a mad science experiment possessed by the friggin' devil. He was an unnatural *FREAK*. That he could look the way he did and still run laps around the likes of Tifa and Barret was the whole point. That this guy is *NOT RIGHT*, but the situation Avalanche found themselves, the very *desperate* struggle, forced them to place their trust in him.

Cloud in the Remake is a complete and utterly worthless joke. They took everything away from him.

And I can't believe you accused me of misandry. Did you not play the original? Did you not realize the clever bait and switch? That Cloud was a cool unstoppable badass and it was all a farce because he was the puppet of a demonspawn with aspirations of godhood? That Cloud was a used and abused ultimately tragic figure forced and manipulated into betraying the ones he cared the most about?

He was a science experiment that was locked in a tube for months to years and spent every free moment UP TILL FINDING TIFA as a babbling vegetable, he's an unnatural freak who didn't exercise for years. But sure he can immediately run rings around a woman who's been training for the better part of half her life in martial arts and strength/stamina training.

And the remake cloud was exactly like the original cloud, but allowed to air out his contradictions with the added time to see his fractured psyche and the leaps his brain went to to validate the lies he tells himself and others.
And, finally.
I wasn't charging you with Misandry. You just, as usual, have a shit take.

Wow. You guys. I'll spell it out for you then.

Mako is the story's ex machina and ultimately what everyone is fighting over. It's the figurative and literal life-blood of the planet and it's *running in Cloud's veins*. It's Terra's Esper heritage. It's Cecil's Lunarian heritage. It's the magic juice that makes the protagonist the protagonist, the one who gets shit done, and everyone depends on. So much so that the party loses hope when Cloud isn't around.

BUT besides *that*, Cloud is a failed Sephiroth clone. That means he has Jenova's blood in him too. That's right. He also has *the blood of the game's metaphorical devil* in him. He's also being compelled and controlled by Sephiroth's will, the game's ultimate big bad, the most powerful man in the world.

He has the power of good and evil within him. The fate of the world is upon him. And you guys are writing him off as a nothing? Did the big giant sword not clue you in? You're supposed to think he's a super badass, the game reinforces the point all the time, all to set up the game's climax and big twist.

We can talk about what makes the other party members special if you want, but narratively speaking, Cloud's the strongest by far because it's literally his role in the story. He's the guy you're supposed to want to be...until you learn the truth about him.

blindVigil said:

I replayed the original recently, actually. Cloud was a failed mako experiment, who, at the very most, was only slightly above the average person physically. He wasn't good enough for SOLDIER, and only qualified for a basic grunt position. You know, those guys you kill hundreds or thousands of over the course of the game.

Avalanche, and more specifically Barret, only had a problem with hiring him because he was ex-Shinra. The only thing anyone really took issue with was his attitude, because he was an awkward aloof "too cool for school" dork. Which itself was a result of the mako experiments frying his brain, followed by him absorbing Zack's memories and forgetting who he even was.

At no point in the game does he really do anything that seems unreasonable for the rest of the cast to emulate. All of his superhuman feats associated with him came from other media, and not his debut game. He's a barely cognitive loser in FF7. He was only pretending to be an unstoppable baddass, until he finally stopped living in Zack's shadow and stood up to Sephiroth.

This is wrong.

Cloud's persona after the Nibelheim incident is shot. There's an internal battle of wills vying for control over him. Hojo wants to turn him into a Sephiroth Clone. Sephiroth wants to make him a puppet. Cloud wants nothing to do with any of them, but he also has nothing to live for, other than denying them. Until he meets Tifa, at which point Cloud makes a devil's pact with Jenova and Sephiroth; he'll let them control him, so long as Tifa is 1.) safe and 2.) doesn't see him as a loser. That is Cloud *becomes* Tifa's fantasy version of him. The Cloud of Tifa's memories. The fantasy/memories of the boy who claimed to be different and would rescue her from her loneliness.

That's what Jenova does, you see? It reads people's minds, so as to manipulate and get close to them. It'll become that which you desire. It will turn into your most cherished person. And Cloud does that repeatedly in the story. He becomes Tifa's Fantasy Cloud. He becomes Zack for Aeris. He becomes a slutty woman for Don Corneo. He becomes Dyne fo Barret. It's Jenova's instincts controlling and compelling him.

This is all in the game. When you go through Gast's and Ifalna's video logs, she explains what Jenova does. Sephiroth goes further into detail at the Northern Crater. He tells truths and lies. He explains that Jenova is a shape shifting mind-reader and the "Cloud" we've been playing as throughout the story up to that point is a fake based on Tifa's memories of a boy named Cloud. This is a half-truth. Cloud's persona is certainly based on this heroic fantasy version of Cloud, Tifa's dream Cloud, but also is Cloud, the one who's overwhelmed by his own self-loathing and perceived failures.

Steak said:
words after words

Words that doesn't matter over the fact Cloud was a stringbean after failing SOLDIER, and after failing at being a Sephiroth clone, to the point Hojo literally wanted Cloud to die for being such a failure. Suck his dick all you want, won't change him from being an abject failure at both the mako infusion and Jernova cell assimilation to the point he was literally comatose for his entire stay at hojo's lab up till he ran into tifa in midgar.

cd_young said:

Words that doesn't matter over the fact Cloud was a stringbean after failing SOLDIER, and after failing at being a Sephiroth clone, to the point Hojo literally wanted Cloud to die for being such a failure. Suck his dick all you want, won't change him from being an abject failure at both the mako infusion and Jernova cell assimilation to the point he was literally comatose for his entire stay at hojo's lab up till he ran into tifa in midgar.

Hojo regarded Cloud as a failure because Hojo's a moron. All of the other Sephiroth clones were successes. That includes the Sephiroth clones made from the *corpses of small children*. Given the difference between Cloud and the other clones, what exactly constitutes a failure? That is...rambling incoherently and talking about Sephiroth, Jenova, and Reunion constantly and...not doing that.

Why? Because Hojo is a bad scientist. He's plagued by the great failing known as confirmation bias. If something doesn't *confirm* his beliefs then that something must be wrong, because Hojo can't possibly be wrong. Rather brilliant example of a bad scientist. Another thing people failed to appreciate about the game and it's characters.

Putting that aside, what actually is the difference between Cloud and all the other Sephiroth clones? Dun-dun-dun! That is...Sephiroth has a personal interest in Cloud. He doesn't care about the other clones one way or another. But the connection through Jenova is made and out of all other beings in the world...Sephiroth hates Cloud the most. So much so that he'll protect and support him just so he can be made to suffer.

The game's archvillain wants Cloud to live just so that he can be broken by his own hand. Again, Cloud has the power of Sephiroth's will behind him. This is the same will that turned the WEAPONS into puppets.

Steak said:

steak giving Cloud the mother of all reacharounds.

we get it you want cloud's buster sword. And all of hojo's successes... also made it into SOLDIER. Except Cloud. and the reason Sephiroth was 'interested' in cloud was, despite having jenova cells, had the bare minimum of an ego and wasn't an active, cognizent member of the hivemind and thus a toy to play with til bored.

cd_young said:

we get it you want cloud's buster sword. And all of hojo's successes... also made it into SOLDIER. Except Cloud. and the reason Sephiroth was 'interested' in cloud was, despite having jenova cells, had the bare minimum of an ego and wasn't an active, cognizent member of the hivemind and thus a toy to play with til bored.

Hojo's success hinges on the fact he's doing the devil's work. Remember; this is the guy who thought breeding Aeris and Red XIII was a good idea. When he's not injecting people with the essence of primordial evil, he's a dunder. It's to set up a contrast with Aeris's father, Prof. Gast, who is a good, ethical, and moral scientist, who above all is willing to admit when he's wrong.

And no, as far as we know, the only thing that makes Cloud special in comparison to literally every other Sephiroth clone is that none of them stabbed Sephiroth in the back and threw him down a reactor shaft after what was supposed to be his defining and crowning moment of personal glory. Sephiroth who had a superiority complex and didn't know where he was from and what his place in the world is.

See, Cloud humiliated Sephiroth when Sephiroth was at his most triumphant. Knocked him right off that pedestal. The superior man, the devil's chosen heir, laid low by the worthless runt from the boonies. Once you grasp the poetry involved, the rest of the game's story and themes really start to click.

Steak said:

Hojo's success hinges on the fact he's doing the devil's work. Remember; this is the guy who thought breeding Aeris and Red XIII was a good idea. When he's not injecting people with the essence of primordial evil, he's a dunder. It's to set up a contrast with Aeris's father, Prof. Gast, who is a good, ethical, and moral scientist, who above all is willing to admit when he's wrong.

uh. Jenova is an uncognizant animal. she literally had no higher brain functions aside from CONSUME. Sephiroth literally took her hivemind over in seconds of her reawakening.

Steak said:
And no, as far as we know, the only thing that makes Cloud special in comparison to literally every other Sephiroth clone is that none of them stabbed Sephiroth in the back and threw him down a reactor shaft after what was supposed to be his defining and crowning moment of personal glory. Sephiroth who had a superiority complex and didn't know where he was from and what his place in the world is.

uh, Cloud did that BEFORE Hojo started making Sephiroth clones. Also, it's not hard to sneak up on some one who's navel gazing as hard as he was at the moment.

Steak said:
See, Cloud humiliated Sephiroth when Sephiroth was at his most triumphant. Knocked him right off that pedestal. The superior man, the devil's chosen heir, laid low by the worthless runt from the boonies. Once you grasp the poetry involved, the rest of the game's story and themes really start to click.

And.... Sephiroth didn't care since as he was literally surfing the collected knowledge of all life that existed on Gaia, he learned everything about Jenova and how to assimilate the whole fucking world.

BUT that doesn't fucking matter because Tifa is still in better shape then both Cloud and Barret, which was the original argument before you started jerking cloud off through his pants.

cd_young said:

uh. Jenova is an uncognizant animal. she literally had no higher brain functions aside from CONSUME. Sephiroth literally took her hivemind over in seconds of her reawakening.

What was Hojo's major success? The creation of Sephiroth. How did Hojo achieve Sephiroth? By injecting Jenova cells into his pregnant wife. Hojo is an incompetent and failed scientist who uses the devil to achieve his goals. Narratively speaking, Jenova is evil itself. We can discuss the specifics, but that's the jist.

uh, Cloud did that BEFORE Hojo started making Sephiroth clones. Also, it's not hard to sneak up on some one who's navel gazing as hard as he was at the moment.

And.... Sephiroth didn't care since as he was literally surfing the collected knowledge of all life that existed on Gaia, he learned everything about Jenova and how to assimilate the whole fucking world.

Actually, Sephiroth's sitting so pretty for most of the game getting petty revenge on the one person who got the better of him in his whole entire life is well within his means. Again, superiority/god complex. Sephiroth has to prove he's better than Cloud by controlling and breaking him, make him give in willingly.

BUT that doesn't fucking matter because Tifa is still in better shape then both Cloud and Barret, which was the original argument before you started jerking cloud off through his pants.

As far as the sited example goes, both Tifa and Barret complained about how well Cloud took to the stairs in the original game The Remake completely changed the experience, removing key jokes, having Tifa talk down to Cloud constantly, literally and figuratively. It's just another scene twisted and broken and tossed on the pile like so many others.

Steak said:
More useless words.

pulls out a doll.
It's ok, tell us where FFVII Remake touched you. we won't judge.

cd_young said:

pulls out a doll.
It's ok, tell us where FFVII Remake touched you. we won't judge.

It treated Red XIII like a dumb animal when he was clever and brave in the original.

Steak said:

It treated Red XIII like a dumb animal when he was clever and brave in the original.

you mean the character introduced in the last 5 hours of the game, was erudite and insightful in all his interactions, held his own opinion of the currently unfolding situation and was only treated like an animal by HOJO the same slimeball that treated Aerith like an animal? that red 13?

cd_young said:

you mean the character introduced in the last 5 hours of the game, was erudite and insightful in all his interactions, held his own opinion of the currently unfolding situation and was only treated like an animal by HOJO the same slimeball that treated Aerith like an animal? that red 13?

Aeris tames him like a bloody Disney princess, he refers to Barret as a sack of shit, and Hojo of all people outsmarts him. All Red does in the Remake is flip some switches.

Steak said:

Aeris tames him like a bloody Disney princess, he refers to Barret as a sack of shit, and Hojo of all people outsmarts him. All Red does in the Remake is flip some switches.

LAST FIVE HOURS OF THE GAME he literally has more plot relevance in the minor amount of time in the remake than in the whole of the original. Your anti-remake arguments are really, really bad.

cd_young said:

LAST FIVE HOURS OF THE GAME he literally has more plot relevance in the minor amount of time in the remake than in the whole of the original. Your anti-remake arguments are really, really bad.

And he's wildly out of character the whole time. In the original, he tricks Hojo, is polite to the party, shows how brave he is by taking the lead in tracking Jenova's massacre throughout the building. All in the span of a half hour or so. In the remake, he's angry all the time, except when Aeris treats him like a good boy.

Steak said:

And he's wildly out of character the whole time. In the original, he tricks Hojo, is polite to the party, shows how brave he is by taking the lead in tracking Jenova's massacre throughout the building. All in the span of a half hour or so. In the remake, he's angry all the time, except when Aeris treats him like a good boy.

you get mistreated by hojo for who knows how long and then try and interact politely with other humans. Again, stupid argument.

Jesus fuck I didn't expect my comment to spawn a 50 page debate but it's kinda funny. Also the twist of Cloud is that he could be anybody and he's just an average soldier but he finally becomes more than Sephiroth thematically when he admits this and embraces his individuality with the hep of his totally not girlfriend Tifa. Yes Cloud has Jenova Cells, but so does everyone in Soldier so it's not that unique or crazy special when you account for that context.

Flake456 said:

Jesus fuck I didn't expect my comment to spawn a 50 page debate but it's kinda funny. Also the twist of Cloud is that he could be anybody and he's just an average soldier but he finally becomes more than Sephiroth thematically when he admits this and embraces his individuality with the hep of his totally not girlfriend Tifa. Yes Cloud has Jenova Cells, but so does everyone in Soldier so it's not that unique or crazy special when you account for that context.

I just pointed out, of the three in the context of the 60 floor race, Tifa would be the least winded and exhausted of the lot since she's been regularly exercising and building her stamina with martial arts and workouts for at least a decade. Then Steak went full Steak-mode since he hates the remake.

Flake456 said:

Jesus fuck I didn't expect my comment to spawn a 50 page debate but it's kinda funny. Also the twist of Cloud is that he could be anybody and he's just an average soldier but he finally becomes more than Sephiroth thematically when he admits this and embraces his individuality with the hep of his totally not girlfriend Tifa. Yes Cloud has Jenova Cells, but so does everyone in Soldier so it's not that unique or crazy special when you account for that context.

Cloud's memories were suppressed by Hojo, Sephiroth, but also himself. There were things he didn't want to remember. Every time he does remember something, it's been edited or has certain details blocked. Like when he remembers the things his mom told him on the day he returned to Nibelheim. Most of the things she talks about or asks are blocked. Likely because they'd break the illusion hiding what kind person he actually he is and what kind of life he had growing up.

The real Cloud very rarely appears, the most notable example is when Sephiroth asserts his control and has Cloud give him the Black Materia the first time at the Temple. And again, he's completely helpless, both at stopping himself in handing over the Materia and attacking Aeris. Cloud's self-loathing is overwhelming, all stemming from the times he failed or believed he failed to protect someone or they were hurt because of him. The only time he'd ever made any difference in his whole entire life was when he stopped Sephiroth at Mt. Nibel. That is ultimately what restores his faith in himself, not only because he overcame Sephiroth, but most importantly he saved Tifa's life.

Also that Tifa being there for the big reveal was important in restoring him. Because what she thinks of him matters way more to him than his own feelings. After everything is said and done, she's basically his reason for being.

Steak said:

words words words

WILL YOU JUST FUCK OFF ALREADY!?

There's a checkmark next to the buttons for "Submit" and "Preview" called "No bump". It's very useful.

You guys sure make essay in this comment,I read it

Read every comment just so I could listen to the song over and over again.