[deleted]

They're going to make getting tanned illegal.

uneune said:

She's not that dark...

That's the point of this artist's mini-series.

uneune said:

She's not that dark...

It's blackwashing, a.k.a imaginary situation where Nagatoro wasn't a tanned japanese girl but somehow another race's, for example african-american girl.

Tanned skin has cultural and personal connotations. An indication of being outdoors frequently. Implications of being an active person. An athletic person. An outgoing person. An energetic person. A healthy person. Tanned skin indicates a myriad of traits that are generally considered positive.

It's similar to someone who wears glasses. Wearing glasses is used to indicate weakness as much as intelligence.

Maybe this is a good place to clarify that this artist draws canon Nagatoro alongside this AU. You can still not like it, blacklist alternate skin color all you want, but most artists just aren't drawing stuff they like because they're out to get stuff you like.

feline_lump said:

Maybe this is a good place to clarify that this artist draws canon Nagatoro alongside this AU. You can still not like it, blacklist alternate skin color all you want, but most artists just aren't drawing stuff they like because they're out to get stuff you like.

Maybe not *most* artists, but such people exist, and they can be in pretty powerful and influential places.

Steak said:

Tanned skin has cultural and personal connotations. An indication of being outdoors frequently. Implications of being an active person. An athletic person. An outgoing person. An energetic person. A healthy person. Tanned skin indicates a myriad of traits that are generally considered positive.

It's similar to someone who wears glasses. Wearing glasses is used to indicate weakness as much as intelligence.

Was this supposed to be a reply/followup to someone? To me, it looks like an incomplete comment.

this is pretty much the same thing 4chan used to do, americanize everything

love how the artist calls her Niggataro

Is it just me or is the idea of white guys getting together with black girls highly enticing?

[deleted]

Necrobane said:

Is it just me or is the idea of white guys getting together with black girls highly enticing?

He's Japanese though?

disgusting western trash

sev76 said:

disgusting western trash

I doubt you care, but I'll warn you anyway, if you persist in making these types of comments you will most likely be banned. Find something better to do with your time.

blindVigil said:

I doubt you care, but I'll warn you anyway, if you persist in making these types of comments you will most likely be banned. Find something better to do with your time.

Funny thing is that he had the account for about two years and just now decided to spam flaming messages.

[deleted]

Considering we already have a gender-swap tag (5 of them!) and that this sort of thing is a continuing trend with fan artists we should really consider creating a race-swap tag or similar. Particularly useful in this case as more than just skin color is altered.

(Elaboration): We also have a variety of other tags that serve the same purpose for similarly significant character redesigns, such humanization, mechanization, monsterfication, animalization, and more. For how much race-swapping often changes a character, I feel there's more than enough precedent to justify a specific tag.

Searching alternate_skin_color provides numerous examples of changes that're more than skin deep:

Caucasian / White Nessa (Pokemon).
Multi-ethnic Powerpuff Girls.
African-American / Black Jessie & James (Pokemon).
African-American / Black Nintendo Princesses.

And that's just from the first few pages. Alternate_skin_color does cover the same general purpose, but so too do a number of broad reaching tags that also encompass our various existent ~ation and ~swap tags. A specific tag would make it easier for those interested to find such images and those disinterested to blacklist and ignore them.

TouToTheHouYo said:

stuff

I can see the benefit to that tag proposal, but I would definitely recommend starting a new forum thread to double-check with more users outside this comments section.

TouToTheHouYo said:

[...]
Multi-ethnic Powerpuff Girls.

@TouToTheHouYo

Just FYI but it might be canon, The CW are working on a live-action show.

jeffjoestar said:

love how the artist calls her Niggataro

why are you downvoting me? i'm right! https://twitter.com/NotMahmaPuu/status/1392505528476131336

jeffjoestar said:

why are you downvoting me? i'm right! https://twitter.com/NotMahmaPuu/status/1392505528476131336

racist slurring is never being right.

T34/38 said:

racist slurring is never being right.

And how can repeating what the artist said be wrong?

Sigfried666 said:

And how can repeating what the artist said be wrong?

The artist is also wrong. Lol.
That question just made me laugh sorry.

TouToTheHouYo said:

Considering we already have a gender-swap tag (5 of them!) and that this sort of thing is a continuing trend with fan artists we should really consider creating a race-swap tag or similar. Particularly useful in this case as more than just skin color is altered.

(Elaboration): We also have a variety of other tags that serve the same purpose for similarly significant character redesigns, such humanization, mechanization, monsterfication, animalization, and more. For how much race-swapping often changes a character, I feel there's more than enough precedent to justify a specific tag.

Searching alternate_skin_color provides numerous examples of changes that're more than skin deep:

Caucasian / White Nessa (Pokemon).
Multi-ethnic Powerpuff Girls.
African-American / Black Jessie & James (Pokemon).
African-American / Black Nintendo Princesses.

And that's just from the first few pages. Alternate_skin_color does cover the same general purpose, but so too do a number of broad reaching tags that also encompass our various existent ~ation and ~swap tags. A specific tag would make it easier for those interested to find such images and those disinterested to blacklist and ignore them.

Ok, lets race-swap black characters to white characters that's fine and totally not racist, right?

Asahi_Beer said:

Ok, lets race-swap black characters to white characters that's fine and totally not racist, right?

It'd be no more racist than gender-swapping female (or male) characters would be sexist. It could be done in a racist manner but the practice itself is not inherently racist, same as how gender-swapping a character is not intrinsically sexist.

TouToTheHouYo said:

It'd be no more racist than gender-swapping female (or male) characters would be sexist. It could be done in a racist manner but the practice itself is not inherently racist, same as how gender-swapping a character is not intrinsically sexist.

Unfortunately, most people don't see it that way. People really wouldn't be complaining about non-black to black swapping if the reverse wasn't automatically seen as racist. Sure, poc-ifying characters is often used as a way for "better representation", but that's simply not how it works considering the plethora of originally poc characters in Japanese media, along with the fact that anime's main demographic are the Japanese, not necessarily anyone else.

SuccMeme said:

Unfortunately, most people don't see it that way. People really wouldn't be complaining about non-black to black swapping if the reverse wasn't automatically seen as racist. Sure, poc-ifying characters is often used as a way for "better representation", but that's simply not how it works considering the plethora of originally poc characters in Japanese media, along with the fact that anime's main demographic are the Japanese, not necessarily anyone else.

That, and most anime characters are Japanese. Asians are also "PoCs".

(Of course, the usual mukokuseki artstyle does obscure it somewhat.)

JoesT said:

Was this supposed to be a reply/followup to someone? To me, it looks like an incomplete comment.

The artist's premise is missing the point. Being a tanned Japanese girl has meaning. It compounds and develops the character. It's not superficial, but the artist is treating it like it is. Depicting Nagatoro as being gang raped has more substance than whatever *this* is.

SuccMeme said:

Unfortunately, most people don't see it that way. People really wouldn't be complaining about non-black to black swapping if the reverse wasn't automatically seen as racist. Sure, poc-ifying characters is often used as a way for "better representation", but that's simply not how it works considering the plethora of originally poc characters in Japanese media, along with the fact that anime's main demographic are the Japanese, not necessarily anyone else.

True, but if site administrators are going to continue to allow such depictions to be posted we should have the means to appropriately and accurately tag them for what they are, controversial or otherwise. Not like the site doesn't already have a variety of other contentious tags that sill see regular use.

NNescio said:

That, and most anime characters are Japanese. Asians are also "PoCs".

(Of course, the usual mukokuseki artstyle does obscure it somewhat.)

Also true, but unfortunately many self-professed progressives don't tend to consider anyone with fair skin a "PoC", regardless of their ethnicity, or if they do, they do so selectively. That applies even more so to anime & manga characters who are almost always perceived as "white" by such people, especially those unfamiliar with Japanese media, and as such are rarely granted the same considerations as PoC characters.

[deleted]

Liszt6 said:

Considering that PoC seems like a term created exclusively to rally literally every other race against palies, gringos and gaijen, I have to question the intention of anyone who uses it.

Further so now that "PoC" is gradually becoming "BPoC": Black and People of Color, ironically segregating a term otherwise intended to be inclusive of marginalized peoples. There's little reasoning with people insistent on obsessively categorizing everything in their lives by degrees of personal offense. If they wish to be perpetually miserable, let them. Unfortunately we still have to suffer them and their destructive influence on our culture.

Case-in-point: The topic at hand. These sorts of pictures should be entirely innocuous but in a culture where everything is perceived as potentially racist it turns otherwise innocent reimaginings into powder kegs awaiting a spark.

Liszt6 said:

Considering that PoC seems like a term created exclusively to rally literally every other race against palies, gringos and gaijen, I have to question the intention of anyone who uses it.

There is a lot of "Us versus them" mentality with it, twitter is pure cancer, though. I deleted my account and never looked back.

T34/38 said:

racist slurring is never being right.

The artist is a black woman though, and she herself calls the character niggatoro

Liszt6 said:

Considering that PoC seems like a term created exclusively to rally literally every other race against palies, gringos and gaijen, I have to question the intention of anyone who uses it.

That's totally not an attitude that leads to increased polarization. There's no way that immediately assuming ill-intent could possibly backfire. Nope, definitely no stereotype-reinforcing behavior here, no siree.

nonamethanks said:

The artist is a black woman though, and she herself calls the character niggatoro

Honestly that isn't a good excuse when she whitewash the character.

nonamethanks said:

The artist is a black woman though, and she herself calls the character [redacted]

Still not a great idea to throw it around. If you've watched The Office, you might remember an especially cringey scene where Michael Scott impersonates Chris Rock; this is sorta the comment thread equivalent of that.

DownWithTheThickness said:

Still not a great idea to throw it around.

It would escalate into a shitstorm no matter how the character is called. Every raceswap post is destined to have endless arguing and namecalling under it, it's just how the internet works now.

nonamethanks said:

It would escalate into a shitstorm no matter how the character is called. Every raceswap post is destined to have endless arguing and namecalling under it, it's just how the internet works now.

Perhaps, but if a flamewar isn't the goal, then I don't think pouring any gas on the fire is necessary. And slurs are high-octane.

There's a difference between using curse words as insults and using them in a legitimate way. The artist called the character niggatoro, so that's how people are going to refer to her no matter how much you dislike it. That doesn't make people using the name "niggatoro" racist.
Publicly denouncing how angry you are just encourages them to do it even more, that's just how people behave on the internet. Even the artist started using that name more after seeing how irrationally butthurt people were.

nonamethanks said:

There's a difference between using curse words as insults and using them in a legitimate way.

There's also a difference between curse words and slurs. And while "people" may be contrarian for the sake of "triggering" whoever the enemy tribe this week is, that's not an excuse. Taking bait may not be good, but intentionally baiting isn't exactly morally high ground.

DownWithTheThickness said:

There's also a difference between curse words and slurs. And while "people" may be contrarian for the sake of "triggering" whoever the enemy tribe this week is, that's not an excuse. Taking bait may not be good, but intentionally baiting isn't exactly morally high ground.

It's an endless moral debate centered around fetish porn, there's no moral high ground here. You're not superior to someone else because you're taking this seriously and they're trolling. Don't you see how stupid all of this is? Everyone involved in these never-ending chains of circular logic might as well have room temperature IQ.

And it's even more ridiculous that it keeps showing up under every single post with a race swap now, and it always follows the exact same patterns. Do these arguments really have to drag on for days every single time now?

nonamethanks said:

...there's no moral high ground here.

You're the one that brought up "legitimate" use of slurs.

Everyone involved in these never-ending chains of circular logic might as well have room temperature IQ.

... you do realize that you're contributing to the chain as well? 8/36 of the comments in this chain are either yours or direct responses to yours, that's 22%. (Actually, with this comment, it becomes 24%.) Claiming to not "take things seriously", especially while still arguing, doesn't grant you superiority either. If you want to cut a conversation short, declining to participate usually works pretty well.

DownWithTheThickness said:

You're the one that brought up "legitimate" use of slurs.

... you do realize that you're contributing to the chain as well? 8/36 of the comments in this chain are either yours or direct responses to yours, that's 22%. (Actually, with this comment, it becomes 24%.) Claiming to not "take things seriously", especially while still arguing, doesn't grant you superiority either. If you want to cut a conversation short, declining to participate usually works pretty well.

I replied because

• It's really tiresome to browse anime art only to to see people self-fellate over the same topics for the Nth time, to the point where it turns into an unintentional parody. The comment chain in comment #2124700 and comment #2124738 looks like one of those "you wouldn't download a car" commercials. It's ridiculous.
• people are now getting reported in this comment thread because of "racism" when they're merely posting objective facts. comment #2124700 was reported for "Keeps posting slurs". Really? Given that I'm a moderator, I'm forced to participate when the report function is being used in a frivolous way

[deleted]

nonamethanks said:

I replied because

• It's really tiresome to browse anime art only to to see people self-fellate over the same topics for the Nth time, to the point where it turns into an unintentional parody. The comment chain in comment #2124700 and comment #2124738 looks like one of those "you wouldn't download a car" commercials. It's ridiculous.

We're up to 28% now. Look, I get your frustration. But if an ongoing argument irritates you, chiming in to support one side and/or attacking the other is not the way to resolve it quickly. You already said it yourself: "Publicly denouncing how angry you are just encourages them to do it even more, that's just how people behave on the internet." And, to put it bluntly, when the subject is "I'm angry that people don't like slurs" you're going to get a double dose from the people who read that and wonder "why do you want slurs that badly"?

Given that I'm a moderator, I'm forced to participate when the report function is being used in a frivolous way

I'm like 99% sure you aren't forced to comment.

My argument is not "I'm angry that people don't like slurs", it's "I'm tired of people using danbooru to pontificate about fetish porn and then reporting everyone they disagree with". Every time one of these posts show up it's a mathematical certainty that at least a handful of comments will show up in the moderation reports with nonsensical reasons, and then we have to go through the entire thread and make sense of all the walls of texts that are saying nothing at all. It's a waste of time for everyone.

In any case, I don't want to keep contributing to the noise, so I'll take my leave now.

Dnte said:

The artist is also wrong. Lol.
That question just made me laugh sorry.

The artist is a female PoC, as such, the artist can never, ever and ever be wrong, what are you talking about? (lol)

Also, there is no way the artist can be wrong about the nickname id decided for a character.
And since jeffjoestar was merely mentioning said nickname, he can't be wrong about it either.
You disliking a kind of word does not make it "wrong" to keep existing.

nonamethanks said:

There's a difference between using curse words as insults and using them in a legitimate way. The artist called the character niggatoro, so that's how people are going to refer to her no matter how much you dislike it. That doesn't make people using the name "niggatoro" racist.
Publicly denouncing how angry you are just encourages them to do it even more, that's just how people behave on the internet. Even the artist started using that name more after seeing how irrationally butthurt people were.

She also used Melanin-toro & Chocolate-toro.
But some people thought they can get a free n-word pass.

kia'ra said:

She also used Melanin-toro & Chocolate-toro.
But some people thought they can get a free n-word pass.

I don't really believe people need passes to use words.
Freedom of speech and all that.
Of course, the words causing offense and all that is also a consequence, but this does not seem to be about offense at all.

DownWithTheThickness said:

That's totally not an attitude that leads to increased polarization. There's no way that immediately assuming ill-intent could possibly backfire. Nope, definitely no stereotype-reinforcing behavior here, no siree.

Let me break this down for you.
I'm going to go over two terms. PoC and Whiteness, because there are terms that effectively do the same thing. PoC condenses groups and races down to one solitary group, without regard for difference in culture, ideology, religion etc. A lot of these groups out right hate each other, and yet the individuals who engineered this word want you to view everyone who isn't pale as as the same group.
Whiteness does much the same. I have nothing in common with someone out of the opposite coast of me, let alone in someplace like Europe, where we wouldn't even share the same language. I hate german engineers a lot due to personal reasons.
Why do these words exist then? They oversimplify everything about the situation without a hint of nuance.
Best I can tell, it's because they're made to stand in opposition to each other. They're newspeak, created to instigate an us vs. them mentality where there wouldn't be one otherwise.
So, why shouldn't I be in opposition to people who want to normalize these broad terms that mean almost nothing and only instigate racial tensions?

Liszt6 said:

nonsense

It sounds like you've bought into the revisionist idea that any conflict between minorities and whites is some sort of modern, "SJW" invention, and not a perfectly accurate characterization of the behavior of american racists for the past couple centuries. Take slavery, for example: the state in which I live used to be a territory in which slavery was legal. Interestingly, though, only about 20% were africans; the other 80% were all native americans. Somehow, despite being from two of the most genetically and geographically distinct ethnic groups on the planet, they suffered the same problems at the hands of the same people! And on the other side of the coin, the white slaveowners included not only people who'd moved from elsewhere in the states, but also immigrants from all across Europe. Their differences, again, didn't stop them from acting the same. The KKK included members from every different european background, and attacked not only africans but arabs, jews, and even homosexuals. Martin Luther King was hated by white americans of all backgrounds, not just those from one specific country or in one specific state.

Calling giving a name to an existing problem "newspeak" really only proves that you didn't understand the themes of 1984. Lying to say there isn't a problem, and demonizing those who acknowledge any problem is the real Orwellian behavior ("memory hole" and "crimestop", anyone?). White supremacists aren't some myth, those who point out that most minorities have got the shit end of the stick in this country (and need to work together if they want to improve their collective lot) aren't "instigating" anything, because you can't instigate a conflict that's been ongoing since the country's founding.

[deleted]

Liszt6 said:

I think your biggest problem is not only are you focusing on American history rather than on a global scale, but you're widely focusing on a time period in which literally every person involved are well past dead. You mentioned white Americans. America isn't the only place in the world.

You brought up the idea that you don't consider yourself the same as people on the other coast, so clearly America is relevant to the discussion. We're both, clearly, living in America, and if you're online, speaking english, and hearing terms like "PoC" and "Whiteness" most of the people bandying around these terms are too.

The civil rights act was only passed in 1964, that's not 80 years ago, that's not even 60. And insisting that that was the last holdout of institutional racism in America is asinine. You even admit there are "still scars", and looping back around to the poverty issue, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret: if you have a huge chunk of the population who were politically disenfranchised up until a mere 57 years ago, and you also have a society bent on making the rich richer and keeping the poor poor, then the consequences of that disenfranchisement will persist long beyond the laws themselves no longer being on paper. And speaking of drug laws, as recently as the 70s those were being pushed as a "colorblind" means of suppressing minority voters and providing slave labor (which is still legal under the constitution as long as you've been convicted of something). My own parents, who are only in their 50s, still insist that the civil rights movement was a communist plot to destroy America. (And if you have to straight-up lie about the timeline of events to pretend they aren't important, you are a twat.)

To me, in short, it feels like some people are trying to create tension over stuff that in all practical sense doesn't really matter, considering that everyone directly involved with it are long dead or so ancient as to be irrelevant, and keeping us from addressing real issues in any meaningful way.

And that's where you're wrong. These issues are far more recent and relevant than you seem to think, and insisting that they're "over" is a tactic meant to push the blame for disenfranchisement on the disenfranchised (i.e. "the playing field is level, so if they're struggling they must be lazy/weak/stupid/inferior"). To quote Malcom X:

If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. If you pull it all the way out that's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made. And they haven't even pulled the knife out much less heal the wound. They won't even admit the knife is there.

The correlation between people who insist "racism is over" and the people who attack any attempt at establishing social safety nets or programs to help those in the lower class into the middle cannot be ignored.

[deleted]

Liszt6 said:

Sorry, I suck at math.
Second, I have nothing in common with your average german folk as well, what's your point.
Finally.
So, tell me, what is your solution for it? I'm curious. Let's just assume everything I said is wrong, what would you do to actually fix things? Reprerations? Special tax? All that's going to do is create second class citizens out of the other group, the absolute vast majority of which had absolutely nothing to do with it, just like the people who would benefit from it. I mean, college already allows students of certain races to get in at a lower standard, although if you ask me, that's just the racism of lower standards.
How do you handle the children of immigrants? Most my ancestors immigrated to america, so why should I be affected? The color of my skin? That's a broad generalization you got there, sounds like something you've been going on about for a while.

And I'm for laws that level the playing field, I'm just for doing it for everyone, rather than singling out one group or the other. I'd much appreciate it if you didn't assume things on my behalf.

Time to settle things.
You're all biased. You're all racists.
Also, race is a social construct. It's a reality, created by us, humans. Potential, but dubious genetic differences between humans are differences in phenotypes.

Now eat some applie pie, drink some tea. The picture is ok.

By the way, Germans are bad, they don't know how to make baguettes. Really, a weird bunch. *Hisses*

Also, be angry at me, it's more interesting than being angry at nothing. This place isn't Reddit.

DownWithTheThickness said:

It sounds like you've bought into the revisionist idea that any conflict between minorities and whites is some sort of modern, "SJW" invention, and not a perfectly accurate characterization of the behavior of american racists for the past couple centuries. Take slavery, for example: the state in which I live used to be a territory in which slavery was legal. Interestingly, though, only about 20% were africans; the other 80% were all native americans. Somehow, despite being from two of the most genetically and geographically distinct ethnic groups on the planet, they suffered the same problems at the hands of the same people! And on the other side of the coin, the white slaveowners included not only people who'd moved from elsewhere in the states, but also immigrants from all across Europe. Their differences, again, didn't stop them from acting the same. The KKK included members from every different european background, and attacked not only africans but arabs, jews, and even homosexuals. Martin Luther King was hated by white americans of all backgrounds, not just those from one specific country or in one specific state.

Calling giving a name to an existing problem "newspeak" really only proves that you didn't understand the themes of 1984. Lying to say there isn't a problem, and demonizing those who acknowledge any problem is the real Orwellian behavior ("memory hole" and "crimestop", anyone?). White supremacists aren't some myth, those who point out that most minorities have got the shit end of the stick in this country (and need to work together if they want to improve their collective lot) aren't "instigating" anything, because you can't instigate a conflict that's been ongoing since the country's founding.

You talk about whites as if we are all the same. My family from Alabama was with Civil Rights, including supporting Martin Luther King. My Irish ancestor was denied an officer commission in the US military until he changed his Irish surname. During World War 2, my great-grandparents on my dad's side intervened to prevent a Japanese family from being interned by convincing the government they were Chinese expats. And my grandmother on my mom's side was in a Nazi forced labour camp as a Belgian Citizen. The nature of the world isn't whites versus everyone else, its people versus people, often people of very similar background facing subtle or overt discrimination.

Also the KKK hated Catholics as well. Your point about the KKK is nonsense, they had a very specific idea of "Whiteness" they wanted to enforce and their targets included those Europeans viewed as "lesser", especially the Irish.

The world isn't America, and history is not a simple matter of us versus them.

arckik said:

Time to settle things.
You're all biased. You're all racists.
Also, race is a social construct. It's a reality, created by us, humans. Potential, but dubious genetic differences between humans are differences in phenotypes.

Now eat some applie pie, drink some tea. The picture is ok.

By the way, Germans are bad, they don't know how to make baguettes. Really, a weird bunch. *Hisses*

Also, be angry at me, it's more interesting than being angry at nothing. This place isn't Reddit.

Germans just over complicate everything in terms of engineering. Fixing their stuff is like trying to decode the secrets of the universe in order to use a toaster.

Liszt6 said:

Germans just over complicate everything in terms of engineering. Fixing their stuff is like trying to decode the secrets of the universe in order to use a toaster.

But isn't German technology supposed to be the best in the world? /s

[deleted]

[deleted]

[deleted]

NNescio said:

But isn't German technology supposed to be the best in the world? /s

If you like Rube Goldberg machines, sure, I guess.

[deleted]

Alright this discussion thread has gone long enough, so its time to put an end to it.

Edit: also don't self upvote your own posts, please.