he'd be a better parent then Saber and Morgan combined. Not a hard bar to clear mind, since he'd actually care about her at all.
To be fair to Saber, it's not her fault Mordred told her that she was her son, via rape by Morgan, like literally right before she was about to set sail for the Western Roman Empire.
And it's not like Saber hated her or anything, in fact she outright said she never hated Mordred. She just sucked at communicating to Mordred there was no point in making Mordred her heir because the plan was that Arturia, being never aging due to Avalon and Excalibur, was to rule forever essentially.
To be fair to Saber, it's not her fault Mordred told her that she was her son, via rape by Morgan, like literally right before she was about to set sail for the Western Roman Empire.
And it's not like Saber hated her or anything, in fact she outright said she never hated Mordred. She just sucked at communicating to Mordred there was no point in making Mordred her heir because the plan was that Arturia, being never aging due to Avalon and Excalibur, was to rule forever essentially.
Oh I will blame Saber. I'll blame her for utterly failing at basic human interactions. Even if she never intended to pass on the throne (the height of hubris in itself) there were countless better ways to go about things without trampling all over Mordred, who had been an excellent knight up until that point. And that is on top of the fact that Saber should know, better then most, just how manipulative Morgan is.
Even if she never intended to pass on the throne (the height of hubris in itself)
Hardly hubris when it's a monarchy, where you rule for life until age or the sword removes you from the throne. An immortal monarch literally has no reason to pass the throne on. It's not like the people of England elected her, she drew the sword of selection from the stone and became king. The only way she was ever going to pass the throne was by being killed.
That being said, if you're going to blame Artoria for having poor social skills, might as well blame Merlin for not teaching her them. Except his aren't much better, if at all. Actually, they're arguably worse since his worldview is inhuman thanks to his incubus heritage.
Hardly hubris when it's a monarchy, where you rule for life until age or the sword removes you from the throne. An immortal monarch literally has no reason to pass the throne on. It's not like the people of England elected her, she drew the sword of selection from the stone and became king. The only way she was ever going to pass the throne was by being killed.
That being said, if you're going to blame Artoria for having poor social skills, might as well blame Merlin for not teaching her them. Except his aren't much better, if at all. Actually, they're arguably worse since his worldview is inhuman thanks to his incubus heritage.
Well, that's a good point but lets not forget that Caliburn was kinda rigged, given that it was all but guaranteed to choose the child of the last king, regardless of actual qualifications. But then, that was the MO for leadership across the entire planet for literal centuries, so I don't know what I really expect... ^.^;
I'm not gonna waste time blaming Merlin, making him take responsibility for anything is about as fruitful as making the tide pack it in. ^.^; I do however think that sir Ector is somehwhat responsible. He was her adoptive father after all.
Well, that's a good point but lets not forget that Caliburn was kinda rigged, given that it was all but guaranteed to choose the child of the last king, regardless of actual qualifications. But then, that was the MO for leadership across the entire planet for literal centuries, so I don't know what I really expect... ^.^;
I'm not gonna waste time blaming Merlin, making him take responsibility for anything is about as fruitful as making the tide pack it in. ^.^; I do however think that sir Ector is somehwhat responsible. He was her adoptive father after all.
Kay was Ector's son right? And Uther was Arturia/Arthur's real father correct?
Hardly hubris when it's a monarchy, where you rule for life until age or the sword removes you from the throne. An immortal monarch literally has no reason to pass the throne on. It's not like the people of England elected her, she drew the sword of selection from the stone and became king. The only way she was ever going to pass the throne was by being killed.
That being said, if you're going to blame Artoria for having poor social skills, might as well blame Merlin for not teaching her them. Except his aren't much better, if at all. Actually, they're arguably worse since his worldview is inhuman thanks to his incubus heritage.
More than that, Camelot was doomed from the start because of forces outside any human control.
The Garden of Avalon novel that Nasu wrote reveals that Merlin told Artoria that the British Isles were losing their Mystery, and thus anything that relied on it, including pretty much every single leader strong enough to protect their people from the endless invaders and monsters would fail by effectively universal enforcement. As in, reality itself would ensure that every single kingdom possible fell and everyone died with no chance of survival. Either Vortigern won and turned Britain into a land of Mystery that rejects all human life forever, or all things with magic in them are choked out when the Mystery fades.
Artoria basically said "fuck that" and formed Camelot to give the Britons a place to live out their lives in peace and endure the transition. Any who could not endure would pass peacefully instead of being butchered by all of the invaders from all sides and the famine that had already been straining the land for years before Artoria took the throne. If possible, she wanted to give them a chance to come to terms with the changing times and perhaps find a way to survive anyway.
She then kicked Vortigern's ass to make sure humans could survive and make the next age one of mankind, despite knowing that it guaranteed that she would die with her kingdom due to her dragon core. That's why she didn't name an heir: Camelot WOULD die with her and no force in all of creation could change that. EVER.
Instead, she ruled for ten years (Camelot would have only lasted one under any other ruler ever) and broke every single attacker, even ones that were stronger than Camelot's entire army (Lucius and his army of giants and superhumans from Rome), and even defeated Mordred, only falling from the death-strike curse Mordred had in her body.
TL;DR: Artoria was forbidden by universal decree from succeeding in having a lasting kingdom or legacy. SOMETHING would have happened to destroy Camelot and should have happened sooner than it did. She almost broke the universe in lasting as long as she did because she was a king that could never make a mistake in deciding her kingdom's actions. Even with her distance from ordinary people, she was basically too good a king for people to rebel until Mordred rallied the petty nobles who hated being always wrong and unable to indulge their greed under Artoria.
Kay was Ector's son right? And Uther was Arturia/Arthur's real father correct?
Yup, that's right
pyroninja13 said:
Very Good Points
ok, but hang on. Her entire motivation to fight in the Fourth and Fifth Grail War at all was to name someone else king, someone who would not cause the Round Table to split and the Battle of Camlann to happen, so that Camelot would survive. That's her entire reason for being around in Fate/ Zero and the start of Fate/ Stay Night. This kinda smells like an attemptive Retcon...
ok, but hang on. Her entire motivation to fight in the Fourth and Fifth Grail War at all was to name someone else king, someone who would not cause the Round Table to split and the Battle of Camlann to happen, so that Camelot would survive. That's her entire reason for being around in Fate/ Zero and the start of Fate/ Stay Night. This kinda smells like an attemptive Retcon...
Not so much: During the 4th War, Saber initially only wanted to try ruling Camelot again from the beginning of her reign, this time aware of the mistakes that led to Camelot falling HOW and WHEN it did. She didn't come to the conclusion that she herself was the source of everything going wrong until her fight with Lancelot.
After that, she revised her intent for the 5th War. She believed that someone in Briton would do a better job than her (there wasn't anyone anywhere on Earth better at it, but she didn't know this) and make Camelot last longer without the violence and strife of her end, allowing Camelot to pass "as if falling into sleep" instead of so many knights and citizens being killed in the fighting and subsequent chaos of Camelot's fall.
In essence, she wanted Camelot not to fall due to violence and bloodshed, but for Camelot to last long enough for the fae spirits within it to transition over to the Reverse Side, for her people to leave peaceably to new lands if able, or to die safe and comfortable like she planned to if they could not when her time came and all the magic that allowed Camelot to function disappeared.
More than that, Camelot was doomed from the start because of forces outside any human control.
The Garden of Avalon novel that Nasu wrote reveals that Merlin told Artoria that the British Isles were losing their Mystery.
For the sake of space, trimming down the reply; But really I fucking hate that hackneyed justification, reminds me of how LoTR is written, how everything sucks, nothing will get that much better, get fucked no matter how much you win or beat everything, the writer just wants things to suck, and it drains a lot of fun and life from further works.
For the sake of space, trimming down the reply; But really I fucking hate that hackneyed justification, reminds me of how LoTR is written, how everything sucks, nothing will get that much better, get fucked no matter how much you win or beat everything, the writer just wants things to suck, and it drains a lot of fun and life from further works.
The trick is that the Fate franchise and most of Nasu's works always take a moment to point out that human progress happening now through science spreading what was once a unique miracle to the masses is a good thing. Where before something like flight was considered only for the beasts of the air and the occasional magician, now anyone can hop on a plane. The magi that cling to old traditions are shown to be growing weaker, but every time the topic is brought up, it's stated that it's because science is catching up and making miracles available to all instead of only to stubborn hermits whose power weakens if they spread their knowledge to others.
Heck, making the Five True Magics achievable by science will be considered the ultimate proof we have mastered the world, the final challenges: imagine technology being able to let us cross timelines to visit alternate worlds, manipulate time, make matter/energy ex nihilo and other things we consider impossible today!
Sure the world is less fantastical than it once was, but the point is that the future is going to be amazing. Everything magic is able to do, science will someday be able to give to everyone and we have the potential to reach the stars, something that no other species on Earth even conceived of.
That's how Nasu looks at it: we see the stories of those who struggle to step forward, but the future is bright for those who want it and help humanity advance.
For Camelot, it was simply time for the age of dragons and giants to end so that mankind could claim its rightful place as undisputed rulers of the world and establish their own values of knowledge and understanding upon the planet. It might be tragic for the knights at the time, but it was overall a good thing for humanity as a whole.
The trick is that the Fate franchise and most of Nasu's works always take a moment to point out that human progress happening now through science spreading what was once a unique miracle to the masses is a good thing. Where before something like flight was considered only for the beasts of the air and the occasional magician, now anyone can hop on a plane. The magi that cling to old traditions are shown to be growing weaker, but every time the topic is brought up, it's stated that it's because science is catching up and making miracles available to all instead of only to stubborn hermits whose power weakens if they spread their knowledge to others.
Hermits who, it must be remembered, are more often than not nearly, if not entirely, amoral assholes. The Nasuverse pulls no punches in that regard. Rin, Luvia, Zeltrech and Waver are very much exceptions to the rule.
Heck, making the Five True Magics achievable by science will be considered the ultimate proof we have mastered the world, the final challenges: imagine technology being able to let us cross timelines to visit alternate worlds, manipulate time, make matter/energy ex nihilo and other things we consider impossible today!
Wouldn't it be reaching and understanding the Root through technology? I would think the mastering of the Five True Magics by science would be the step immediately before that.
That's how Nasu looks at it: we see the stories of those who struggle to step forward, but the future is bright for those who want it and help humanity advance.
I would also argue this is what LOTR also showed in the end, to tie it all together. Sure, the age of elves and dwarves came to an end, but the age of men really only started after the events of LOTR. Not only that, but everyone involved all knew what destroying The One Ring would mean when they set out to do so, and did it anyway because it would be a good thing on the whole.
2nd lunch? I guess Saber is sick. I expected it be her 7th.
Well, thus far, it seems as though she's had Breakfast, Second Breakfast, and Elevenses. Thus, all that's missing now is Afternoon Tea, Lunch, Supper, Dinner, Dessert, and MidRats.
Well, thus far, it seems as though she's had Breakfast, Second Breakfast, and Elevenses. Thus, all that's missing now is Afternoon Tea, Lunch, Supper, Dinner, Dessert, and MidRats.
Hey, hey, Mother~
Let's go and find an even better slide~!!tug tugShirou-kun's 10th slide todayAlready had lunch so he's fullNo way!! Shirou is coming with me to buy lunch!!2nd lunch
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