I added a originally non-existing "reme—mber?" since thought it would be nice to replicate the pronunciation of the Japanese text ですよー, which I envisioned Zuikaku saying with an upward tone shift towards the end(よー). "Today" sounds weird with an upward tone-shift so I came up with "remember". Perhaps there is a better choice of word without adding what wasn't in the original text, please kindly make improvements to it, if it isn't too much trouble. Incidentally, I also wanted to preserve the drawn-out syllables of certain sentences, but found myself in a bit of a dilemma: should I type multiple letters of the drawn out syllable ("remeeember?") or should I use ~ instead, to my eyes both make the word a bit hard to read (especially the former), so I searched for a bit and found this punctuation "—", which, though pleasing to my eyes, I do not know how to type on my keyboard. I'm not even sure if it's English in origin. Might I ask for some tips on how to translate drawn-out syllables?
I added a originally non-existing "reme—mber?" since thought it would be nice to replicate the pronunciation of the Japanese text ですよー, which I envisioned Zuikaku saying with an upward tone shift towards the end(よー). "Today" sounds weird with an upward tone-shift so I came up with "remember". Perhaps there is a better choice of word without adding what wasn't in the original text, please kindly make improvements to it, if it isn't too much trouble.
'Riiiight' or 'Ye-eees' can work.
PensivePencil said:
Incidentally, I also wanted to preserve the drawn-out syllables of certain sentences, but found myself in a bit of a dilemma: should I type multiple letters of the drawn out syllable ("remeeember?") or should I use ~ instead, to my eyes both make the word a bit hard to read (especially the former), so I searched for a bit and found this punctuation "—", which, though pleasing to my eyes, I do not know how to type on my keyboard. I'm not even sure if it's English in origin.
That's the em dash (named so because of it has the width of an 'M'). This punctuation exists in English, and is used to express breaks in text — like so. In essence, the em dash allows you to escape from the normal grammatical syntax of a sentence and link sentence fragments together.
There are many uses for the em dash. You can 'replace' a comma, colon, semicolon, pairs of parentheses, etc. In effect, you interject a statement directly into the normal flow of a sentence — so technically the grammatical 'meaning' changes — drawing greater emphasis to the qualifying statement/clause/phrase. This is discouraged in formal writing* though (you rather use proper, specialized punctuation and who/what/when/which/that-relative clauses), but is common when writing dialogue, so you see it quite often in novels.
A different use of the em dash is to punctuate interrupted dialogue. Like, say, if I were to comment on about getting knifed by Sakuya after making a PAD CHIEF jo—
Or saying Candlejack and getting cut right off as the speaker is being captu—
*AHEM* I guess you get the point. It sort of works like ellipses '...' here but is more abrupt. So, yeah, using it to indicate elongated syllables like the Japanese chouon (－) is a bad idea.
Another related use is to indicate missing or censored words and letters. Like f—ck, c—nt, sh—t, etc. Asterisks can also be used so, but em dashes are preferred in print. Again, this makes use of the em dash to indicate elongated vowels inappropriate.
PensivePencil said:
Might I ask for some tips on how to translate drawn-out syllables?
The 'standard' way (used in novels and informal transcriptions) is to punch in extra vowels or glide consonants, like "Heyyyyy", "Riiight", and "Let's gooooo!". Sometimes you insert extra dashes (the hyphen kind) to make it easier to read (or to avoid sound 'shifts' from doubled letters), like "Ye-eees". Online, you sometimes see the wave dash or tilde (~), 'though personally speaking I don't like it. That said, it is useful as a shorthand way of indicating a sing-songy kind of voice (vs. say, using multiple letters with alternate caPITaliiiZATION).
A raised pitch at the end can usually be indicated by turning the sentence into a question, using question tags ("isn't it?", "doesn't it?". Also informal ones like "yes?", "no?", "huh?", "you know?" can carry you a long way.) if necessary.
It's also sometimes better to elongate things at the same position in the sentence, rather than the same word, since Japanese sentence structure is looser than English, and you often need to rearrange things to make sense in English. For example, some characters (like Tatsuta) will just elongate the last word of any sentence, regardless of the word, so it doesn't matter what word was elongated, just make the last word elongated.
Also, there's not any formal rule for doing it, but I tend to just add two of the vowel in the last syllable. (To avoid any confusion from doubled letters, like "to" and "too", triple letters never occur naturally, so they're safe, and you'd wind up with "tooo" and "toooo".) If it's a two-vowel word, I add one to each, like "Head oouut!"
...so I searched for a bit and found this punctuation "—", which, though pleasing to my eyes, I do not know how to type on my keyboard.
On Windows? Alt-0151. That is, hold the ALT-modifier key, then press 0151 on the numpad, then let go. Keep Numlock on to avoid undesirable behavior (e.g. ALT + 4 would also be interpreted as ALT + ← with numlock turned off, causing most browsers to go back to a previous webpage).
(Yes, I memorized the ALT code because I use it often in translations. Helps deal with multi-clause pileup sentences that are common in Japanese.)
On Linux, hit COMPOSE (usually it's keyed to ALT or WIN), then hit three dashes/hyphens, then let go (intuitive, eh?). Alternatively you can also use the Unicode insertion method, but that requires HOLDING DOWN ALT-SHIFT-U followed by keying in the unicode number (2014), which is a total hassle even with long fingers.
(Some other Linux software support holding down ALT-SHIFT then typing U followed by unicode, or pressing ALT-SHIFT-U as a toggle [no need to hold down], but browsers usually don't support these methods.)
On Windows? Alt-0151. That is, hold the ALT-modifier key, then press 0151 on the numpad, then let go. Keep Numlock on to avoid undesirable behavior (e.g. ALT + 4 would also be interpreted as ALT + ← with numlock turned off, causing most browsers to go back to a previous webpage).
(Yes, I memorized the ALT code because I use it often in translations. Helps deal with multi-clause pileup sentences that are common in Japanese.)
On Linux, hit COMPOSE (usually it's keyed to ALT or WIN), then hit three dashes/hyphens, then let go (intuitive, eh?). Alternatively you can also use the Unicode insertion method, but that requires HOLDING DOWN ALT-SHIFT-U followed by keying in the unicode number (2014), which is a total hassle even with long fingers.
(Some other Linux software support holding down ALT-SHIFT then typing U followed by unicode, or pressing ALT-SHIFT-U as a toggle [no need to hold down], but browsers usually don't support these methods.)
On Mac or Android, I dunno.
Thank you, NNescio! I've learned a lot today. So the function of a em dash — aside from censoring and interruption — if I were to draw a comparison, is not similar to the Japanese "ー"(chouon), but closer to the Chinese "—"(破折號) with more freedom regarding it's usage, would that be right? (I wonder if they're related to one another, or if one originated from the other?)
Thank you, NNescio! I've learned a lot today. So the function of a em dash — aside from censoring and interruption — if I were to draw a comparison, is not similar to the Japanese "ー"(chouon), but closer to the Chinese "—"(破折號) with more freedom regarding it's usage, would that be right? (I wonder if they're related to one another, or if one originated from the other?)
Yeah, the em dash ("—") is pretty much equivalent to the 破折号 ("——", breaking symbol) in function, at least in broad terms. Like most modern CJK (Chinese/Japanese/Korean) punctuation, the 破折号 is an European import during the early 20th century (likely introduced in translations of European texts).
Side notes:
Show
Chinese traditionally is written 'without' punctuation. In classical text (wenyan), pauses and stops are inferred via rhyme/meter and context, and sometimes lexically with sentence-ending particles like 兮/也/乎/之/者. Another way to indicate pauses is via a full-width space (seen in some Song Dynasty texts). Sectioning marks (「」) are also sometimes used to indicate the start and end of a chapter (this is more common in scrolls instead of bound books).
In extant books, you will also see 句读 marks, but those are put there by the reader to help indicate pauses (、) stops (。), as an aid for future self-reference (similar to penciled-in notes and highlighting found in modern used textbooks).
All of the above are retained in modern Chinese (except for the archaic sentence-ending particles, as they have become largely unnecessary except when trying to emulate the classical, literary style), but the bulk of modern Chinese punctuation is derived from European punctuation.
Note that European punctuation originally developed similarly (as reading notes for pauses and stops), but the proliferation of movable type led to standardization of punctuation marks. Eventually they began to take on actual grammatical functions (with prescribed 'restricted' uses).
I would say that the 破折号 is more flexible in Chinese though, as it can also be used to indicate elongated syllables like the Japanese 長音符, in addition to its em dash/breaking uses. It can also be used to indicate interruptions and missing words like the English em dash (not outright censorship though, usually it just means that the words cannot be heard clearly or part of the conversation is missing), but this is a slightly less standard use. There's also the "sudden contrast/change in topic" use (突然转变) that would require the use of a conjunction in English (and not just implied contrast via semicolon or em dash).
The 破折号 is also taught as an actual punctuation mark in native Chinese language classes (well, at least for mine), while the em dash is usually less 'formal' and not explicitly taught in English classes (unlike, say, the comma/semicolon/colon).
Another interesting thing to note: In Chinese (and in horizontal writing), a proper 破折号 has to take up the space of two full-width characters* (2x U+2014 "——") instead of the single em-width em dash (U+2014, "—"), as it can be otherwise confused for 一 ("one", U+4E00). The Japanese 長音符, meanwhile, is U+30FC ("ー").
Yeah, that's a lot of different 'dashes' that look pretty much the same.
(*You can also use a single "two em dash", U+2E3A, but this has compatibility problems with most fonts and can mess up typesetting because it's handled as a single character; ⸺ will not display properly on most computers.)
Yeah, the em dash ("—") is pretty much equivalent to the 破折号 ("——", breaking symbol) in function, at least in broad terms. Like most modern CJK (Chinese/Japanese/Korean) punctuation, the 破折号 is an European import during the early 20th century (likely introduced in translations of European texts).
Side notes:
Show
Chinese traditionally is written 'without' punctuation. In classical text (wenyan), pauses and stops are inferred via rhyme/meter and context, and sometimes lexically with sentence-ending particles like 兮/也/乎/之/者. Another way to indicate pauses is via a full-width space (seen in some Song Dynasty texts). Sectioning marks (「」) are also sometimes used to indicate the start and end of a chapter (this is more common in scrolls instead of bound books).
In extant books, you will also see 句读 marks, but those are put there by the reader to help indicate pauses (、) stops (。), as an aid for future self-reference (similar to penciled-in notes and highlighting found in modern used textbooks).
All of the above are retained in modern Chinese (except for the archaic sentence-ending particles, as they have become largely unnecessary except when trying to emulate the classical, literary style), but the bulk of modern Chinese punctuation is derived from European punctuation.
Note that European punctuation originally developed similarly (as reading notes for pauses and stops), but the proliferation of movable type led to standardization of punctuation marks. Eventually they began to take on actual grammatical functions (with prescribed 'restricted' uses).
I would say that the 破折号 is more flexible in Chinese though, as it can also be used to indicate elongated syllables like the Japanese 長音符, in addition to its em dash/breaking uses. It can also be used to indicate interruptions and missing words like the English em dash (not outright censorship though, usually it just means that the words cannot be heard clearly or part of the conversation is missing), but this is a slightly less standard use. There's also the "sudden contrast/change in topic" use (突然转变) that would require the use of a conjunction in English (and not just implied contrast via semicolon or em dash).
The 破折号 is also taught as an actual punctuation mark in native Chinese language classes (well, at least for mine), while the em dash is usually less 'formal' and not explicitly taught in English classes (unlike, say, the comma/semicolon/colon).
Another interesting thing to note: In Chinese (and in horizontal writing), a proper 破折号 has to take up the space of two full-width characters* (2x U+2014 "——") instead of the single em-width em dash (U+2014, "—"), as it can be otherwise confused for 一 ("one", U+4E00). The Japanese 長音符, meanwhile, is U+30FC ("ー").
Yeah, that's a lot of different 'dashes' that look pretty much the same.
(*You can also use a single "two em dash", U+2E3A, but this has compatibility problems with most fonts and can mess up typesetting because it's handled as a single character; ⸺ will not display properly on most computers.)
I never knew that 破折號 can be used to indicate interruption/missing text, even as a native speaker of Chinese. You really are knowledgeable!
In school (ones that I've gone to, at least), 破折號 is usually introduced as a punctuation serving a specific purpose/function to the sentence/text (Indicating changes in topic/tone, explanation of the text prior, insertion in the middle of a sentence etc.), while the em dash's function was — as I knew it — 'replacing comma, colon, semicolon pair of parentheses, etc.', 'interjecting a statement directly into a normal flow of the sentence' and, most importantly, 'allows you to escape from the normal grammatical syntax of a sentence', which is what put me under the impression that it's the more free of the two punctuation marks.
I guess since I am a student under the examination system, I'm habitually more rigorous and careful regarding the usage of punctuation of my own country, whilst for English and other foreign languages, I do not have the same concern.
Once again, thank you, Nnescio, for enlightening me.
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