If America had actually died instead of being frozen in a block of ice I don't doubt he would have come back as a hero servant. But considering he already has the super serum in his body I can only imagine how broken he'd been as a servant.
Even with the super serum he's never been that much more impressive than most heroes in myth. Doubly so TM where even the current-tier mages can go toe to toe with him in raw physical abilities.
If anything, it'd be his resolution that'd be more impressive.
He may not have the biggest boost from life, but you better believe Heroic Spirit Steve Rogers, and by extension a Servant version, would have a kickass Legend boost and Noble Phantasm from the whole "embodying America" and "having the faith and belief of the majority of the current global hegemon". Wouldn't make him top tier in an absolute sense, but would fit the frequent modern-era hero motif of being really, really kickass in a particular set of circumstances and/or restrictions.
Not as much of a boost as "Uncle" Samuel Wilson, obviously, but a close second.
Even with the super serum he's never been that much more impressive than most heroes in myth. Doubly so TM where even the current-tier mages can go toe to toe with him in raw physical abilities.
He's actually way more impressive then most heroes in myth that aren't outright demi-gods and even then, those are mostly propped up by tending to have a few outliers of bonkers power among a mountain of other much lesser showings. The actual myths of old heroes tend to be much more grounded, more like LOTRs then a superhero flick. (which isn't at all accidental as Tolkien was inspired by the style and themes of existing ones)
Which has honestly always kind of been one of my beefs with the FSN setting, the actual legends these heroes came from did not have then jumping skyscrapers and destroying towns with laser blasts, and lets be honest here given how much embellishment already exists in various legends if they could do that people sure as shit would have written it down. Like in the myth Excalibur is pretty much just a really sharp sword that's usually unbreakable and can double as a middling flood light when drawn (and sometimes when swing) producing a light as bright as some number of torches. It is not a god slaying death wave that destroys all before it.
So actually if you go by the real myths many modern figures of legendary skill or bravery would be little if any worse then those of yore and actual superhumans would kick the shit out of them. For instance no one has ever attributed any sort magic powers to say Leonidas, he was brave and skilled with weapons of the time, but that's IT. So if you put him in a cage with say the Master Chief he would squash him like a fucking ant. This is also why I have issues with the contrivances that heroes of more recent times have to be comparatively puny and rely on gimmicks. All the FSN heroes are buffed up on MASSIVE levels of bullshit and can do stuff their actual historic myths never did, so why exactly shouldn't more modern heroes get the same treatment?
I remember heroic spirits got more power boost the more famous their legend are. And there're also grail and masters to buff them up. This things seems to be more important than their actual skill when they were alive. Otherwise someone like Shakespeare probably got his ass handed to him in any fight.
Nasuverse runs on legends and the rule of "The older it is, the better."
Someone like Hercules for example is from a very old and famous myth, so his Servant form is appropriately powerful. Someone more recent like Nikola Tesla has pretty weak parameters (though it's made up with his broken NP).
Also, Nasuverse legends are not the same as the legends irl. In the Nasuverse, Excalibur actually was a planet weapon designed to protect it and can do all sorts of shenanigans. Don't confuse Nasuverse with real life.
Also, there's an actual canonical cutoff date for historical figures, a little after 1900, so any historical figure born after that date would be very difficult to get into the Throne of Heroes. Steve Rogers may be amazing, but he would never be able to become a Servant based on Nasuverse rules.
Yet, the rules still find enough BS loopholes to allow Shirou, Kiritsugu, Iri, Ilya, etc to qualify as full Servants. And that's disregarding the case of Demis.
Much like power level discussions, or anything concerning comic book canonicity, I find discussions about what passes as "rules" in Nasuverse ultimately pointless because the writers change it literally every installment to justify more modern Servants, genderflip, body possession, the million other alternate classes for existing characters, or a goddamn Edison lion, to qualify. Some day we might even have Buzz Aldrin be summoned piloting a space shuttle Gundam, for all we know.
Even the "older = better" rule to me meant little more than the justification to make Gilgamesh the most OP character in the otherwise self-contained FSN setting, without any sequels or spinoffs being considered at the time.
Yet, the rules still find enough BS loopholes to allow Shirou, Kiritsugu, Iri, Ilya, etc to qualify as full Servants. And that's disregarding the case of Demis.
Much like power level discussions, or anything concerning comic book canonicity, I find discussions about what passes as "rules" in Nasuverse ultimately pointless because the writers change it literally every installment to justify more modern Servants, genderflip, body possession, the million other alternate classes for existing characters, or a goddamn Edison lion, to qualify. Some day we might even have Buzz Aldrin be summoned piloting a space shuttle Gundam, for all we know.
Even the "older = better" rule to me meant little more than the justification to make Gilgamesh the most OP character in the otherwise self-contained FSN setting, without any sequels or spinoffs being considered at the time.
Actually, Shirou/Kiritsugu are Counter Guardians. Iri/Illya are crossover characters (which aren't really meant to be serious, and in Iri's case she's the actual Iri from the F/Z event) so they don't count.
Also the only Demi-Servant is Mashu (Shielder). You're thinking about Pseudo-Servants which are humans who are catalysts for Servants who can't be summoned normally, like Waver is for Zhuge Liang and Rin is for Ishtar.
I find it interesting that people still complain that the Nasuverse doesn't follow rules when there hasn't been any rule broken, only modified. For example:
1. Divine Spirits cannot become Servants. 1a. Unless they are super weak (Euryale/Stheno). 1b. Unless they have a catalyst and are sufficiently weakened (Pseudo-Servants).
The original rule still is in effect (no being able to summon Ishtar in her full glory, for example) just modified. Which is still following the rules.
Also, we actually don't have a lot of modern Servants. Counter Guardians aside (who can be summoned in from anywhere in the timeline) the most modern Servant in FGO for example is Tesla/Edison, and like I said before, Tesla is weak but with a super strong NP thanks to his contributions to humanity, and Edison is super weak but has his power boosted due to the Mystic Codes of the Presidents of the United States (which is why he has the lion head since the Mystic Code is always on). And both of them are still mindful of the 1900 cutoff date since they were born before and had a good amount of their work around that time. People should really do more research before saying random stuff.
Though I do agree about Gilgamesh, as he was a character who never really should have been made since it complicated the expanded Nasuverse. But him aside, the older/more famous = better is very justified, as it makes for some interesting things, like how Vlad in Apocrypha was super OP thanks to being summoned in his native land where his exploits are the most well-known, or again with Hercules, who is super OP because of how famous his legend is throughout the world.
I admit I didn't read up on EVERYTHING, because hell at this point someone who did might as well ask for a college degree from TYPEMOON, but some points still stands.
I know about the Counter Guardians and Demi(if not the specific differences between Demi and Vessels), but some characters such as Scathach clearly was explained in Ataraxia that she cannot be summoned as a Servant, yet here the rule was clearly changed to justify her being in. You can't deny that rules were bent over the years, nevertheless.
Again, so was multiple rules was still bent for all the "historically recorded as male but is actually female", or "male historical character from alternate universe who happens to be female" or modern literature characters who just happens to be "based on real life and thus appears as their literature counterpart"(contradicting the "historically depicted one way but is actually another way" thing mentioned earlier), or how there's actually more writers/scientists/musicians in the Caster rosters than there are actual mages.
Or you know, the "Hassan only" rule for Assassin class, which was already broken albeit with justifications in FSN, but the following installments rarely gave a shit to ever again.
So in all seriousness, since this is a dumb speculation talk about the inclusion of Steve Rogers as a Servant, who's to say he can't be a vessel to George Washington or Abe Lincoln? Or maybe the Statue of Liberty, if that even counts as a divine spirit by some other Nasuverse convoluted logic. (Note: Statue of Liberty is called "Statue of Goddess of Liberty" in Japanese, so chances are that's a loophole begging to be exploited)
Also by "famous = stronger" logic, someone could summon Santa Claus as a Rider and he'd be invincible. Personally, I also don't quite like this rule. Hercules can lift up the goddamn sky, he's OP enough with or without his popularity power boost, and apart from Apo-Vlad, I don't really see this boost come into play anywhere else so it's also one of those details that just overcomplicate things just for the sake of it.
I admit I didn't read up on EVERYTHING, because hell at this point someone who did might as well ask for a college degree from TYPEMOON, but some points still stands.
Exactly the problem with the lore of Fate verse, there are so many background lore and materials that you need so much research you might as well consider asking for that degree. For example
but some characters such as Scathach clearly was explained in Ataraxia that she cannot be summoned as a Servant, yet here the rule was clearly changed to justify her being in. You can't deny that rules were bent over the years, nevertheless.
This leads to spoilers. Scathach cannot be summoned because she hasn't die yet. Since in FGO Solomon incinerated the world, which did killed her, and hence allowed her to be summoned.
Or you know, the "Hassan only" rule for Assassin class, which was already broken albeit with justifications in FSN, but the following installments rarely gave a shit to ever again.
Because that rule only applies to the Holy Grail War of Fuyuki, and to some extension, the one in Apocrypha, which they did have a justification for the change. The other Holy Grail Wars are totally different from the one in Fuyuki, and hence this rule doesn't even exist for them.
So in all seriousness, since this is a dumb speculation talk about the inclusion of Steve Rogers as a Servant, who's to say he can't be a vessel to George Washington or Abe Lincoln? Or maybe the Statue of Liberty, if that even counts as a divine spirit by some other Nasuverse convoluted logic. (Note: Statue of Liberty is called "Statue of Goddess of Liberty" in Japanese, so chances are that's a loophole begging to be exploited)
Exactly. Because this was simply just a dumb "just for fun" and "what-if" speculation of which class Steve Rogers will be in.
We need to remember this franchise has essentially become a waifu game, they'll add as many loopholes and bend as many rules to have justification to add more waifu. It has evolved to a huge case of "if you think too much, you lose. "
We need to remember this franchise has essentially become a waifu game, they'll add as many loopholes and bend as many rules to have justification to add more waifu. It has evolved to a huge case of "if you think too much, you lose. "
My problem is like the "popularity/older = stronger" or Hassan rule, or Counter Guardian and many others, Nasuverse seems to make up arbitrary rules just specifically for ONE character. The rules are hardly ever applicable to other characters, so it's no surprise that they are promptly loopholed, exploited, or ignored in later installments.
It's like Nasu thinks "more rules = deeper = cooler", when in the end it's just more convoluted for being convoluted sake.
It's paradoxical when Fate constantly tries to refer back to the "good ol' days" of FSN and Fzero while at the same time seeming like it's giving the middle fingers to what legacies those two installments established, and when it's done by Nasu himself, all for the sake of allowing more lolis and boobies into the roster, it's just dumb.
Yes I think too much, and I lost. And I want to think less, actually. I wanted my Fate experience to be as much as "these 2 historical/mythical heroes I know are fighting!", but Nasuverse seems to be mocking me both for wanting more complexity by shoving boobs and ass in my face, while also mocking my desire for simpleness by adding more to its convoluted BS.
and when it's done by Nasu himself, all for the sake of allowing more lolis and boobies into the roster, it's just dumb.
Nasu pretty much stated that FGO IS a festival kind of game, it's pretty much his approach on the whole thing, he is doing his own cuisine with whatever myth, legend and fiction he came across. The only reason you dont see Marvel, DC superheroes and Darth Vader himself is those copyrights and how lawsuit happy US companies like Disney will be.
Nasu pretty much stated that FGO IS a festival kind of game, it's pretty much his approach on the whole thing, he is doing his own cuisine with whatever myth, legend and fiction he came across. The only reason you dont see Marvel, DC superheroes and Darth Vader himself is those copyrights and how lawsuit happy US companies like Disney will be.
You seem to be misunderstanding this.
1) Everyone knows no one is going to touch any heroes that has copyright chains on them. The entire thing about Steve Rogers is SPECULATION. No one is petitioning for him to actually appear in the game.
2) I am aware that FGO is much more of a waifu simulator than every other past installments ever.
3) I am also more than aware that Nasu actually only created only a handful of Servants in FGO, many others are done by other writers who, prior to FGO may not have even worked with TYPEMOON before, much like the artists drawing them.
4) It does not change the fact that Nasu had long past the line into franchise milking territory. In the sense that he cares far more about money than maintaining the vision, standards, and integrity he used to have.
*4) It does not change the fact that Nasu had long past the line into franchise milking territory. In the sense that he cares far more about money than maintaining the vision, standards, and integrity he used to have.*
Kindly fuck the hell right off.
the story for babylon, which Nasu penned himself was longer then all three routes of F/SN and F/HAcombined. AND he's not the only senerio writer, so again fuck off.
the story for babylon, which Nasu penned himself was longer then all three routes of F/SN and F/HAcombined. AND he's not the only senerio writer, so again fuck off.
cd_young said:
Kindly fuck the hell right off.
the story for babylon, which Nasu penned himself was longer then all three routes of F/SN and F/HAcombined. AND he's not the only senerio writer, so again fuck off.
Because "fuck the hell right off" is such a miraculous way of "convincing" someone right?
Again, I DO GODDAMN KNOW there are more than one "writers" for FGO, that's why I'm not going to push it all onto any one person's fault for whatever good it did.
Which is exactly why I am not bashing FGO "the plot", but FGO "the game", the thing I and even FGO's loyal fans called "waifu simulator".
I was against the idea of FGO "the plot" only because it became the time travel mumbojumbo instead of the classical Fate "battle royale in a singular location" format, but that's just me and I won't shove this opinion down your throat.
While you can't credit whatever positives the Fate series has done to Nasu because there are too many writers going around at this point, I believe you CAN attribute the negatives to him, considering he supervised everything in it. It is the same as people blaming movies Michael Bay produced such as TMNT for sucking because of him. He isn't the one who came up with all the goods, but all the bads HAD to go through him before they could go into the final product.
Take that in whatever way you like, I'm not particularly keen on convincing someone who told me to go "fuck off" anyway.
Then there are things like the unyielding attempts to revamp and reuse FSN and Fzero characters to no end, which I doubt even you can argue isn't "milking".
A company using a successful brand they *know* makes money to make money isn't milking, it's called supplying a demand.
You also need to remember it's not just Nasu vetting all this, the people at delight works also have a say.
I believe that while it supplies a demand, it is also essentially milking money. There are no actual reasons for using old characters as images of new servants but they do it anyways because people like those characters, which is essentially what milking money is to my knowledge.
A company using a successful brand they *know* makes money to make money isn't milking, it's called supplying a demand.
Not that I have a dog in this fight, but what, exactly, is the difference between "milking a cash cow" and "making money supplying demand"? (Other than "you don't like the sound of one of those", that is...)
