Now that I think about it, the Edo dialect (that is, the Shitamachi "Downtown" variant) maps perfectly to Cockney. What's being the working-class dialect of the respective capital for each country and all.

NNescio said:

Now that I think about it, the Edo dialect (that is, the Shitamachi "Downtown" variant) maps perfectly to Cockney. What's being the working-class dialect of the respective capital for each country and all.

Just asking, how do you and Paracite and other translators learn Japanese, especially the Kansai dialects? I already gave my all in learning the general Japanese language and all I get is improve so very little all these years.

NNescio said:

Now that I think about it, the Edo dialect (that is, the Shitamachi "Downtown" variant) maps perfectly to Cockney. What's being the working-class dialect of the respective capital for each country and all.

I always have the problem that if you stray too far from the 'standard US' (Standard, Southern, California and NY/NJ) (and some UK) accents, some people can get confused; which is a darn shame as there's just so many lovely dialects out there!

OMGkillitwithfire said:

Just asking, how do you and Paracite and other translators learn Japanese, especially the Kansai dialects? I already gave my all in learning the general Japanese language and all I get is improve so very little all these years.

I studied Japanese at university, all the way to post-graduate Japanese linguistics. Japanese dialects were a major part of one of my courses. Not that I can pull off Kagoshima-ben (or Hachijo-jima *shudder*) or anything, but at least I can recognize what dialect it is, and then use various dialect dictionaries to translate. Most dialects are all but dead except in vocabulary though - the majority of variant grammar and pronunciation (such as where there is still the four seperate sounds of ジ[ʑi], ヂ[di], ズ[zu] and ヅ[du] which all but disappeared by the Edo period). Fun fact! Dialects in Japan radiated out from Kyoto (and later Edo) at a rate of (IIRC) ~2km/yr, so most of the really weird dialects are limited to Kyushu and islands! (not Hokkaido, as that was settled in the 'modern' period) Mass media is killing them off though. You don't really ever learn to speak a dialect unless you live in the area though, simply because speaking a dialect (as a foreigner) just looks and sounds kinda weird anywhere but where it's spoken - and even then...

My actual Japanese improved massively when I started translating here 15 months ago (never did translation before that). It's all practice! Stick with it and just keep on practicing.

Paracite said:
I studied Japanese at university, all the way to post-graduate Japanese linguistics. Japanese dialects were a major part of one of my courses. Not that I can pull off Kagoshima-ben (or Hachijo-jima *shudder*) or anything, but at least I can recognize what dialect it is, and then use various dialect dictionaries to translate. Most dialects are all but dead except in vocabulary though - the majority of variant grammar and pronunciation (such as where there is still the four seperate sounds of ジ[ʑi], ヂ[di], ズ[zu] and ヅ[du] which all but disappeared by the Edo period). Fun fact! Dialects in Japan radiated out from Kyoto (and later Edo) at a rate of (IIRC) ~2km/yr, so most of the really weird dialects are limited to Kyushu and islands! (not Hokkaido, as that was settled in the 'modern' period) Mass media is killing them off though. You don't really ever learn to speak a dialect unless you live in the area though, simply because speaking a dialect (as a foreigner) just looks and sounds kinda weird anywhere but where it's spoken - and even then...

Thanks for replying! Sounds neat, just curious though, did the Japanese linguistic courses help in landing jobs in Japan?

My actual Japanese improved massively when I started translating here 15 months ago (never did translation before that). It's all practice! Stick with it and just keep on practicing.

I feel the same, though I definitely still need more practice.

OMGkillitwithfire said:

Just asking, how do you and Paracite and other translators learn Japanese, especially the Kansai dialects? I already gave my all in learning the general Japanese language and all I get is improve so very little all these years.

I can't speak for others, so what I say only applies to me.

My native language is Chinese. When I was young, a cousin (or rather, his mother) left me a stack of Japanese 'NES' (actually Famicom) games and assorted manga as hand-me-downs. That gave me the motivation to learn more about Japanese. I also borrowed a few books from the library during that period.

Later on I took two semesters of Japanese in college.

Dialect-wise, you usually pick up a few words when watching shows and doing some reading, similar to English. Again, reading things out loud also can help with understanding, and for the more obscure slang and phrases there are dictionaries out there (like what Paracite) mentions which help.

Personally, I believe it is important for beginner learners to move from romaji to kana and kanji as soon as possible. Try to familiarize yourself with things until you're comfortable with looking things up in a native Japanese dictionary. You'll get better at reading and writing the more you read and write. Same for listening and speaking, but most people don't get much of an opportunity to practice speaking unless they're taking formal classes or live in Japan.

The above applies when learning any language. Same goes for programming languages, to a certain extent.

(Oh and you'll get rusty at a language if you don't use it for a while. I can't write a proper Chinese essay or formal letter despite it being my native language, as I've spent most of academic life reading and writing in English.)

OMGkillitwithfire said:

Sounds neat, just curious though, did the Japanese linguistic courses help in landing jobs in Japan?

Landing? Not really. Helping me get ahead? Certainly, as it helps when there's tricky technical translation work to be done. Some of my linguistic papers were heavy on the translation, focusing on semantic meta-language, so I'm equipped to do some excellent glossing of sentences (or diagram, but who wants to do that when you don't have to).

I didn't actually start learning Japanese until my early 20's, which shocked my lecturers a bit (as most people taking Japanese as a major did it in high school too).

We had romaji. For the first week of the first year. Then straight into normal writing (with furigana, of course).

When it comes to dialects, for the most part all you really need is Kansai and maybe Tokyo colloquial; most Japanese writers don't really know much outside of those either. If you're interested in Kansai-ben, Tuttle publishes a nice primer on vocabulary and usage (in English); IIRC it's 'Colloquial Kansai-ben' or something, and I'm pretty sure it's inexpensive (it's only a hundred or so pages). It doesn't need a high level of Japanese ability, and is presented using sample situations with conversations and explanations. I also think that Ritsumeikan put out a video series on Kansai-ben for incoming international students, but I've never watched it.

Outside of Kansai/Tokyo/Hichiku dialects, yeah, I tend to have to look at a dialect grammar, especially when it's not just vocabulary differences.

Unfortunately, I've never really self-learned Japanese, all the 'core' was done at university - and the stuff I learned myself was all done for research projects in linguistics, so unless you need tips on how to differentiate accentuation patterns in the older generations of Japanese (pre mass-media standardization), I can't really give much tips on getting better at the earlier stages beyond just keep using it.

NNescio and Paracite said:
Useful advices

Once again, you both have my thanks.