Related to FS 25, in which Reimu actually disintegrates a human from the village that purposedly turned into a youkai, since they are not allowed to do such things and there's death penalty for it, saying "fuck you" to SC rules (Although they technically don't protect youkai, since there's only written that you can't kill humans from the village, and Marisa did the same to the kutsutsura before) and showing that not everything is solved in a "friendly" manner. If Kosuzu ever becomes a youkai, Reimu would have to destroy her in the same way even if she doesn't want.
Summaries for FS 24/25 that inspired this are here.
Related to FS 25, in which Reimu actually disintegrates a human from the village that purposedly turned into a youkai, since they are not allowed to do such things and there's death penalty for it, saying "fuck you" to SC rules (Although they technically don't protect youkai, since there's only written that you can't kill humans from the village, and Marisa did the same to the kutsutsura before) and showing that not everything is solved in a "friendly" manner. If Kosuzu ever becomes a youkai, Reimu would have to destroy her in the same way even if she doesn't want.
Summaries for FS 24/25 that inspired this are here.
No, because Kosuzu's not gone youkai(yet?). Just that it could happen.
But it's still referencing a spoiler like event even though the event depicted is not the main event. There are many pictures like that for instance those that are tagged fake_spoilersfake_screenshot. It's just spoiling a major event but adding speculation to it.
Related to FS 25, in which Reimu actually disintegrates a human from the village that purposedly turned into a youkai, since they are not allowed to do such things and there's death penalty for it, saying "fuck you" to SC rules (Although they technically don't protect youkai, since there's only written that you can't kill humans from the village, and Marisa did the same to the kutsutsura before) and showing that not everything is solved in a "friendly" manner. If Kosuzu ever becomes a youkai, Reimu would have to destroy her in the same way even if she doesn't want.
Summaries for FS 24/25 that inspired this are here.
Fun food for thought, but some of it has been implied/suggested for a while; its just that the Touhou community largely chose to ignore it. (ie. When Reimu caught Nitori and the kappas in the village, there was an obvious "don't mess with us and we won't mess with you"-atmosphere.)
Probably, but if Reimu can't catch you before you get strong enough to defend yourself then too bad I guess!
IIRC, magicians like Patchouli, Alice and Byakuren are considered youkai aren't they?
they are considered Youkai but they don't live in the village. the summary in the first comment makes the suggestion that turning youkai is against the rules while in the human village.
Is there a rule against turning into a witch and then turning into a youkai?
a witch is a type of youkai in itself (to be exact "magician").
But it's not an issue for the current Magican type youkai as they're not from the village.
nintendofreak768 said:
they are considered Youkai but they don't live in the village. the summary in the first comment makes the suggestion that turning youkai is against the rules while in the human village.
More precisely, it's against the rule for villagers to purposefully change (doesn't say a thing for accidents) into youkai. And I can see the bit of logic: If one gets away with it, then others may follow, thus endangering the balance supposedly.
More precisely, it's against the rule for villagers to purposefully change (doesn't say a thing for accidents) into youkai. And I can see the bit of logic: If one gets away with it, then others may follow, thus endangering the balance supposedly.
Most humans that become youkai had a fear of dying and so turned into various types via multiple means. Magician, curses, proximity to youkai, and others that have not been stated. But those that turn into youkai have committed a sin in general as I think that as long as Reimu sees it happening she will end it right there and then regardless of who, how, or reason regardless of whether or not that they were from the human village or not.
they are considered Youkai but they don't live in the village. the summary in the first comment makes the suggestion that turning youkai is against the rules while in the human village.
Or it is that they were Youkai before coming to Gensokyo.
It's a plothole because Byakuren is also a villager-turned-youkai, I think Ichirin as well, Byakuren was punished for treason too so there's no reason yet shown as to why Byakuren isn't dead yet.
I think this "greatest sin ever that deserves the death penalty" is to purposefully become a Youkai while being an inhabitant of the human village...
Gigawatt5 said:
It's a plothole because Byakuren is also a villager-turned-youkai, I think Ichirin as well, Byakuren was punished for treason too so there's no reason yet shown as to why Byakuren isn't dead yet.
Byakuren was a human but not from Gensokyo and she was already a youkai when she was unsealed... now, Ichirin slowly transformed into a youkai but not on purpose
I think this "greatest sin ever that deserves the death penalty" is to purposefully become a Youkai while being an inhabitant of the human village...
Byakuren was a human but not from Gensokyo and she was already a youkai when she was unsealed... now, Ichirin slowly transformed into a youkai but not on purpose
She was a villager which also had the same punishment for the same act, this wasn't just Gensokyo's human village but any jinyou, but instead of killing her they gave her a worst fate by sealing her for all eternity, but 5000 years later someone found a way to unseal her, I also don't see why being a youkai when unsealed means anything when she still committed the deadly crime.
She was a villager which also had the same punishment for the same act, this wasn't just Gensokyo's human village but any jinyou, but instead of killing her they gave her a worst fate by sealing her for all eternity, but 5000 years later someone found a way to unseal her, I also don't see why being a youkai when unsealed means anything when she still committed the deadly crime.
This was before Gensokyo was established and did not need the same roles of balance.
She was a villager which also had the same punishment for the same act, this wasn't just Gensokyo's human village but any jinyou, but instead of killing her they gave her a worst fate by sealing her for all eternity, but 5000 years later someone found a way to unseal her, I also don't see why being a youkai when unsealed means anything when she still committed the deadly crime.
IIRC Byakuren lived and got sealed before Gensokyo really was a thing. That and she got sealed more due to the whole race traitor thing than breaking a precise rule which wouldn't exist yet.
Is Marisa still a human ? Or she's also a youkai like Alice or Patchouli. Not sure if that detail is from the game or just fanon.
Tengu are supposed to be ascetics hermits who lost their way. They don't specifically turn themselves into tengu, only looking for higher spiritual understanding and failed in it. Although, checking in Wiki, that version seems to arise later than the originally monster version.
Is Marisa still a human ? Or she's also a youkai like Alice or Patchouli. Not sure if that detail is from the game or just fanon.
Tengu are supposed to be ascetics hermits who lost their way. They don't specifically turn themselves into tengu, only looking for higher spiritual understanding and failed in it. Although, checking in Wiki, that version seems to arise later than the originally monster version.
Marisa is still human. And according to perfect memento the tengu is a youkai society separated by a caste system based by birth. Each separate tengu has a main role to complete under Tenma.
I think the key element that made things pan out as they did but also why she doesn't attack Alice for example is that he said he wouldn't cause trouble. In essence he was a Youkai in body but a human at heart.
It might not sound bad, in fact it might sound good or even admirable, but know that in Touhou cannon a Youkai that doesn't attack humans is deifying it's existence.
If he had been allowed to roam it could very well have caused a snowball effect where people start to realize that the Youkai they are supposed to fear are instead decent people. And if Youkai are not feared they seize to be Youkai. Needless to say but this would of course throw Gensokyou's power balance out the window.
That is why I bring up Alice, she is a Youkai at heart and knows this. And if Dolls in Pseudo Paradise is still cannon and if it is indeed her new backstory, then we know that her past is stained with blood.
Due to all of this, it would not spell good for Kosuzu if she turned Youkai.
I think the key element that made things pan out as they did but also why she doesn't attack Alice for example is that he said he wouldn't cause trouble. In essence he was a Youkai in body but a human at heart.
It might not sound bad, in fact it might sound good or even admirable, but know that in Touhou cannon a Youkai that doesn't attack humans is deifying it's existence.
If he had been allowed to roam it could very well have caused a snowball effect where people start to realize that the Youkai they are supposed to fear are instead decent people. And if Youkai are not feared they seize to be Youkai. Needless to say but this would of course throw Gensokyou's power balance out the window.
That is why I bring up Alice, she is a Youkai at heart and knows this. And if Dolls in Pseudo Paradise is still cannon and if it is indeed her new backstory, then we know that her past is stained with blood.
Due to all of this, it would not spell good for Kosuzu if she turned Youkai.
But all of this is just my guess.
That's an interesting interpretation, but there are other youkai, like Kogasa, Tewi and Wakasagihime, or even Ran and Meiling, that don't attack humans (unless you purposedly go against them), and are not to be feared. Even Sekibanki and Kagerou might qualify, and one of them even lives in the village. Also, Alice is specifically known to never attacks humans too. The fact that she hides in the forest far from humans puts her in the same exact situation of the poor guy since she's not feared at all. The truth is probably just that a human turning into a youkai is betraying his species, and is joining the same thing he is supposed to fear. It is also the equivalent of killing that human and having one more youkai around. Not killing humans is like the 1st rule of Gensokyo after all (Well, the 2nd if you count this not-turning-into-youkai rule).
That's an interesting interpretation, but there are other youkai, like Kogasa, Tewi and Wakasagihime, or even Ran and Meiling, that don't attack humans (unless you purposedly go against them), and are not to be feared. Even Sekibanki and Kagerou might qualify, and one of them even lives in the village. Also, Alice is specifically known to never attacks humans too. The fact that she hides in the forest far from humans puts her in the same exact situation of the poor guy since she's not feared at all. The truth is probably just that a human turning into a youkai is betraying his species, and is joining the same thing he is supposed to fear. It is also the equivalent of killing that human and having one more youkai around. Not killing humans is like the 1st rule of Gensokyo after all (Well, the 2nd if you count this not-turning-into-youkai rule).
That last part is only partly true, it is that they are safe in the village, but outside it anything goes. As for the rest, at least for some of them, they hide their identity as Youkai meaning many humans who see them think they are just regular humans and by doing that creates a loophole where they can interact and live with humans without problems, the humans still fear Youkai but ends up interacting with them without knowing.
However if one of them would become known as a Youkai then things become complicated. In a worst case scenario it could cause humans to stop fearing Youkai as a whole and put their existence on the line. This is one of the reasons to why Reimu can't out Mamizou as a Youkai to Kosuzu.
Also I forgot to mention this earlier but another problem could also be that if one becomes a Youkai and runs freely with a Youkai body but human heart it could lead to more doing the same for longevity, power and safety. And I don't think that would be very good for Gensokyou.
The guest artists make up canon contradicting stuff all the time in those without Zun's approval. In the sideworks he doesn't really care what the other guy does. Zun lets them play in his sandbox however they want.
I think he's even gone on record as saying you can ignore these derivative works if you want. Unless this kind of thing starts showing up in the main games you can just wave this off as the guest artist being a goof.
The guest artists make up canon contradicting stuff all the time in those without Zun's approval. In the sideworks he doesn't really care what the other guy does. Zun lets them play in his sandbox however they want.
I think he's even gone on record as saying you can ignore these derivative works if you want. Unless this kind of thing starts showing up in the main games you can just wave this off as the guest artist being a goof.
The guest artists make up canon contradicting stuff all the time in those without Zun's approval. In the sideworks he doesn't really care what the other guy does. Zun lets them play in his sandbox however they want.
I think he's even gone on record as saying you can ignore these derivative works if you want. Unless this kind of thing starts showing up in the main games you can just wave this off as the guest artist being a goof.
No, he only talked about Inaba of the Moon being "touhou seen in a comical way". All the other stuff is written by him and canon, and you might as well stop denying that. This way you are just killing 90% of the lore ZUN created for touhou for no other reason that there's stuff in it that you personally dislike.
No, he only talked about Inaba of the Moon being "touhou seen in a comical way". All the other stuff is written by him and canon, and you might as well stop denying that. This way you are just killing 90% of the lore ZUN created for touhou for no other reason that there's stuff in it that you personally dislike.
Well, there goes half the Marisa-becomes-immortal stories.
Well, there goes half the Marisa-becomes-immortal stories.
This might be why Maris seeks to become immortal OTHER than that, though not sure if she really counts under the rule as she hasn't really been a normal villager for a while.
In case of Marisa, I think she is not "Human villager" anymore. She cut connection with her family and live in Forest of magic if one day she decide to turn herself to youkai-magician this rule not apply to her (though she show interest to gain immortal life with other way).
No, he only talked about Inaba of the Moon being "touhou seen in a comical way". All the other stuff is written by him and canon, and you might as well stop denying that. This way you are just killing 90% of the lore ZUN created for touhou for no other reason that there's stuff in it that you personally dislike.
Come on, man. This has nothing to do with me disliking it and everything to do with it being the out-of-character work of the his guests.
He's said in one of the fighting games and SoPM he lets the other guys contribute to the writing and take whatever liberties they want. It's pretty obvious, too. The writing styles of most of the sideworks are totally different from ZUN's and even each other. CoLA is the only one that has his writing style.
I mean, look at this. It makes no sense. Reimu hangs out with youkai all the time. There's plenty of human-turned-youkai around she's cool with. There's even youkai that hang out in the human village(kogasa entertaining kids) and give them gifts(kappa statue). The whole thing smells of "guest artist goofing around."
Everything about touhou for the last 15+ years has been about non-leathal peaceful co-existence and understanding between youkai and humans with danmaku games, then suddenly now they start going all Logan's Run on each other? You don't have a series go nearly 20 years with no deaths then suddenly have people offing each other for arbitary reasons. It's way too out of character and against Zun's M.O.
I'm not trying to kill lore, I'm trying to promote the creative integrity of touhou and Zun. And touhou's integrity lies only with Zun.
In case of Marisa, I think she is not "Human villager" anymore. She cut connection with her family and live in Forest of magic if one day she decide to turn herself to youkai-magician this rule not apply to her (though she show interest to gain immortal life with other way).
Does the rule extend to every human in Gensokyo though? Or strictly the villagers?
Does the rule extend to every human in Gensokyo though? Or strictly the villagers?
Reference from reimu conversation when she killed a human that turns into a youkai she said "In Gensokyo, a village human turning into a youkai is the most grievous sin of all". She use word "village human" that I imply human who not part of village should not apply by this rule. In my mind, I can think only 4 humans that not count as village human (not resident of village) : Marisa (not resident of village anymore and live in forest of magic), Sakuya (belong to SDM and came from outside world), Sanae (belong to Moriya shrine and came from outside world) and Mokou (live in bamboo forest).
Some people are never going to believe me and I really don't care. Believe what you want. I've done my homework and seen touhou's integrity.
Dumb internet arguments about canon aside, didn't the guy in the sidework die to become a youkai in the first place? Wouldn't that make him a ghost? If that's the case all Reimu did was do Komachi's job for her.
Some people are never going to believe me and I really don't care. Believe what you want. I've done my homework and seen touhou's integrity.
You have never put your sources for anything you have ever said even when people want you to source them. You just say hey the books that are not any of the games are not canon. You just start an arguement with no proof or reason other than that you don't like it.
Some people are never going to believe me and I really don't care. Believe what you want. I've done my homework and seen touhou's integrity.
Dumb internet arguments about canon aside, didn't the guy in the sidework die to become a youkai in the first place? Wouldn't that make him a ghost? If that's the case all Reimu did was do Komachi's job for her.
Komachi's job isn't to capture people who went around beyond their lifespan, that's the Kishin's job as written in both WaHH and SWR. The Kishin are Oni who work for the Yama to assassinate wannabe immortals like the hermits and the celestials, but the misconception over what the Shinigami (who are only Sanzu's boatmen) actually are causing the belief that Shinigami are the assassins. That's why Eiki can't do anything with Yuuka's supposed oldness in PoFV and Komachi can't drag Tenshi to the afterlife in SWR, that's why the Oni living in Hell got the approval of the Yama as seen in SA, that's why the Taoists bend backward that far just to avoid the death but don't shy away from attentions of Eiki and Komachi in HM.
Also, the script of the mangas are from ZUN directly. After he didn't satisfy with SSiB's depictions like how Yorihime doesn't really do danmaku dodging and even eats Marisa's bullet, which should count as a pichuun (in contrast with the CiLR, which Yorihime do some acrobatic befitting the Spellcard rule) and Toyohime's weapon being a fan (according to ZUN's afterword, it's because of lack of description), ZUN went far to dictate the script even as far as the characters' expression as can be seen in http://dynasty-scans.com/chapters/wild_and_horned_hermit_ch15#30. If it's a homework, then you just got an F.
Hoobajoob, are you aware the writter for Forbidden Scrollery is Zun, right? This is not a "sidework" and it's not "a liberty taken by guest artists". The credits on the cover are pretty clear on this.
Zun himself wrote that Reimu destroyed that newborn youkai. There's a number of theories about how this fits together with the "peaceful coexistence" shown elsewhere in the series, and the one that makes more sense to me is that it's just the human inhabitants from the village that must remain human (or risk being killed by the shrine maiden). In this view, the human village works as a reservation for the feelings of fear and suspicion that youkai need for existing.
This system is cracking here and there, thanks to the peace brought by the Spellcard system, as seen by (for example) Kogasa getting jigs as a babysitter, but it's still pretty much enforced by people in the know (Akyuu, Reimu, etc).
Marisa won't ever risk being killed for becoming youkai, because she explicitly went to live in the youkai forest as a magician. Likewise, Reimu won't go for the kill vs. Alice, Byakuren or other formerly human youkai.
But...
hilariously, Kosuzu meets all the criteria for the kind of people that should be killed if she ever goes youkai, and she passes her days doing exactly the kind of fooling around youkai things that make humans end as one. I don't think Zun is the kind of guy to go for a protagonist killing end, but right now, I think the larger plot of the series is exactly about this: Mamizou wants to see what Reimu will do when somebody she cares about become a youkai, probably because the tanuki is shown elsewhere as a kind of benefactor for other youkai.
hilariously, Kosuzu meets all the criteria for the kind of people that should be killed if she ever goes youkai, and she passes her days doing exactly the kind of fooling around youkai things that make humans end as one. I don't think Zun is the kind of guy to go for a protagonist killing end, but right now, I think the larger plot of the series is exactly about this: Mamizou wants to see what Reimu will do when somebody she cares about become a youkai, probably because the tanuki is shown elsewhere as a kind of benefactor for other youkai.
Forbidden Scrollery shows that Reimu has what is essentially a watch list from the beginning along with any incidents, which take priority. So it shows that she must go to the village and listen in on rumors and complaints. Both WaHH and FS show that Sanae is fairly inactive in incident resolution but can ease incident resolution requests by giving an easily understood reason or some action that would ease the minds of the villagers.
Hoobajoob, are you aware the writter for Forbidden Scrollery is Zun, right? This is not a "sidework" and it's not "a liberty taken by guest artists". The credits on the cover are pretty clear on this.
Zun himself wrote that Reimu destroyed that newborn youkai. There's a number of theories about how this fits together with the "peaceful coexistence" shown elsewhere in the series, and the one that makes more sense to me is that it's just the human inhabitants from the village that must remain human (or risk being killed by the shrine maiden). In this view, the human village works as a reservation for the feelings of fear and suspicion that youkai need for existing.
This system is cracking here and there, thanks to the peace brought by the Spellcard system, as seen by (for example) Kogasa getting jigs as a babysitter, but it's still pretty much enforced by people in the know (Akyuu, Reimu, etc).
Marisa won't ever risk being killed for becoming youkai, because she explicitly went to live in the youkai forest as a magician. Likewise, Reimu won't go for the kill vs. Alice, Byakuren or other formerly human youkai.
But...
hilariously, Kosuzu meets all the criteria for the kind of people that should be killed if she ever goes youkai, and she passes her days doing exactly the kind of fooling around youkai things that make humans end as one. I don't think Zun is the kind of guy to go for a protagonist killing end, but right now, I think the larger plot of the series is exactly about this: Mamizou wants to see what Reimu will do when somebody she cares about become a youkai, probably because the tanuki is shown elsewhere as a kind of benefactor for other youkai.
Of the various youkai who used to be human, the only ones who turned intentionally were Byakuren and the Taoists (and possibly Alice lolpc98canonpad). None were residents of the Human Village at the time of their turning over a thousand years ago; and in Miko's case it wouldn't have mattered if she was, since she was a head of state at the time of her turning.
And since the capital offense in this case is deliberately becoming a youkai, Reimu probably wouldn't have to kill Kosuzu if she were to accidentally become a youkai the way Ichirin did. Both Ichirin and Kosuzu spend an inordinate amount of time with youkai that only they can communicate with (Unzan and the youma books, respectively); Ichirin turned as a result, Kosuzu hasn't yet turned but might.
I'm a bit more interested in what will happen to Kosuzu once she finds out that the human she fangirls over is actually a tanuki, especially if this bit of knowledge is what changes her from human to youkai.