This is how they should beat youkai, and not with useless danmaku. It also bothers me that according to some source, danmaku can't fully kill someone in touhou, it just makes the victim feel "tired". I don't remember where I read this, but it's just plain dumb (Hopefully this isn't genuinely canon). I wish they could decapitate heads, crush organs/break bones or make the target bleed to death like Hakurei Miko does. The lack of this makes touhou look a bit like a child's game in my opinion, much like pokemon where you never see the pokemon actually dying or at least bleeding. Like if they were made out of rubber.
iny said: This is how they should beat youkai, and not with useless danmaku. It also bothers me that according to some source, danmaku can't fully kill someone in touhou, it just makes the victim feel "tired". I don't remember where I read this, but it's just plain dumb (Hopefully this isn't genuinely canon). I wish they could decapitate heads, crush organs/break bones or make the target bleed to death like Hakurei Miko does. The lack of this makes touhou look a bit like a child's game in my opinion, much like pokemon where you never see the pokemon actually dying or at least bleeding. Like if they were made out of rubber.
It's because Reimu's a lazy little miko.
Also, while I also like the brutal honesty of Sandai Miko's reality, I also like Reimu's spellcard system, it's actually a key reason to show just how much respect the Hakurei name has if EVERYONE from humans, to Yokai, to gods have all adopted it's use. Also the entire sub-reality of Gensokuyo would implode if Reimu died for real so they're all keen on keeping her alive.
Alignn said: It IS part of the appeal that it's presented in a basically cheery sort of way... but you'll find plenty of darkness in the fanbase's imagination.
You want some epic grimdark Touhou? Find the group "Hartman's Touhou" on Deviant Art. Not my cup of tea, but I've never let that cloud my judgement on an artist's skill.
iny said: This is how they should beat youkai, and not with useless danmaku. It also bothers me that according to some source, danmaku can't fully kill someone in touhou, it just makes the victim feel "tired". I don't remember where I read this, but it's just plain dumb (Hopefully this isn't genuinely canon). I wish they could decapitate heads, crush organs/break bones or make the target bleed to death like Hakurei Miko does. The lack of this makes touhou look a bit like a child's game in my opinion, much like pokemon where you never see the pokemon actually dying or at least bleeding. Like if they were made out of rubber.
The problem with that idea is that there are plenty of youkai who are insanely hax or just otherwise tricky (canonically even Wriggle is f**kin' deadly in a non-Spell Car fight because she summons near invisibly small poisonous insects to swarm you while you are distracted). No way could the miko realistically beat them all in "No Rules" matches (remember, Reimu has canonically lost like two or three times in the fighting games).
Not to mention the possibility of Reimu simply being ambushed in her sleep or while she's on the toilet or something by otherwise weak youkai. The Hakurei Shrine used to have a barrier that repelled all youkai but Reimu slacked so much with her training any youkai can visit her shrine if they want.
A realistic Touhou is a Gensokyo where the Hakurei Miko has to be replaced damn near once a year. In "Silent Sinner in the Blue" Aya even makes a flippant comment about the death of the Hakurei Miko that could imply they used to die frequently when she thinks Reimu has been killed on the moon (where Spell Card Rules do not apply).
Nevermind that, for all of her badass portrayals in fanworks, something clearly killed Reimu's predecessor in canon. Being willing to kill doesn't necessarily make you invincible, it just encourages your enemies to try that much harder to kill you before you kill them.
At best it would have kept the weaker youkai in line, but Reimu's Spell Card system seems to work to the point where even Akyuu comments that humans rarely get eaten by youkai any more (which makes sense, if all youkai really were evil or a threat to humanity, humans would have died out in Gensokyo long ago; they are too badly outnumbered and outmatched compared to the youkai).
OmniGman said: (canonically even Wriggle is f**kin' deadly in a non-Spell Car fight because she summons near invisibly small poisonous insects to swarm you while you are distracted)
Dunno where you get that "canonically" part from but that would be cool.
OmniGman said: or while she's on the toilet or something by otherwise weak youkai.
Now that would be hilarious.
OmniGman said: The Hakurei Shrine used to have a barrier that repelled all youkai
Sauce?
OmniGman said: something clearly killed Reimu's predecessor in canon.
Ah, yes, speculations.
OmniGman said: (if all youkai really were evil or a threat to humanity, humans would have died out in Gensokyo long ago; they are too badly outnumbered and outmatched compared to the youkai).
I seriously doubt that because they need humans to exist, you know.
Well, regarding Wriggle, she canonically has control over all insects, including harvest mites. Hidea no Akyuu has this to say about them in PMiSS:
Harvest mites are devil bugs that can't be seen by the human eye, and you don't even notice that you've been bitten. Later, small black bite marks will appear, but by then it's too late; you'll get a high fever and collapse, and there is a high probability of death.
mimeki said: Well, regarding Wriggle, she canonically has control over all insects, including harvest mites. Hidea no Akyuu has this to say about them in PMiSS:
Harvest mites are devil bugs that can't be seen by the human eye, and you don't even notice that you've been bitten. Later, small black bite marks will appear, but by then it's too late; you'll get a high fever and collapse, and there is a high probability of death.
OmniGman said: No way could the miko realistically beat them all in "No Rules" matches (remember, Reimu has canonically lost like two or three times in the fighting games).
Not to mention the possibility of Reimu simply being ambushed in her sleep or while she's on the toilet or something by otherwise weak youkai.
Actually, based on the official description of Last Word "Fantasy Heaven" from Imperishable Night, Windows-era Reimu would be unbeatable if she didn't play by spell card rules because she can render herself intangible for an indefinite period of time.
BadRoad said: Actually, based on the official description of Last Word "Fantasy Heaven" from Imperishable Night, Windows-era Reimu would be unbeatable if she didn't play by spell card rules because she can render herself intangible for an indefinite period of time.
BadRoad said: Actually, based on the official description of Last Word "Fantasy Heaven" from Imperishable Night, Windows-era Reimu would be unbeatable if she didn't play by spell card rules because she can render herself intangible for an indefinite period of time.
Indefinite doesn't equal infinite, though. I'm sure she still needs energy to do that so eventually, the spell will wear off.
Anyway, this is veering into power level discussions here, so beware.
Skribulous said: She has to eat and sleep eventually...
That's because Touhou is basically a game. The whole point of human-youkai "conflict", the spellcard system and danmaku in Gensokyo is to maintain the delicate balance between power factions while propagating fear of youkai in humans through incidents, but still keeping the players alive and in good health, lest the thing they've always believed in and lived fail. The humans need youkai and the youkai need humans. It's not just about curbstomping some youkai.
But it's not like everything is rosy in Gensokyo. There's a dark side to human-youkai co-dependency, too. Humans who wander in are basically on their own unless they find friendlies, which is basically a necessity to keep the Human Village safe from youkai. But if a serious attack on a native does happen, it stands to chance that real extermination does go down. It's even implied in Wild and Horned Hermit 13 that this is exactly what happens. We just don't see it on-screen.
All to keep the humans and youkai in their places.
For alot of fans that still actually think Touhou is all cherry and lolipops, Subterranean Animism has shown a crap ton of the dark side of Youkai. The recent canon info of Kisume has given alot of actual canon fans lots of ammunition.
The existance of the Underground Youkai as a whole shows that there is still a crapton of Youkai that go more on the evil scale than the good scale. Alot of them still harbor hatred for not only humans, but above ground youkai as well for their banishment to the underground.
You got races of youkai so hated, that even Humans and above Ground Youkai actually agree on something for once.
Lightdreamer said: Indefinite doesn't equal infinite, though. I'm sure she still needs energy to do that so eventually, the spell will wear off.
There is at least some speculation that she might be naturally intangible and need to exert effort to become solid, although there's not much canon justification for that interpretation.
Huh, really? For what do they need the youkai for?
UnderneathTheWaves said: But if a serious attack on a native does happen, it stands to chance that real extermination does go down. It's even implied in Wild and Horned Hermit 13 that this is exactly what happens. We just don't see it on-screen.
Yeah, I just read that and I got the same impression.
Lightdreamer said: Huh, really? For what do they need the youkai for?
Not all the youkai, perhaps. But Gensokyo being based on Shinto-esque mythology, it's quite likely that it's metaphysically magic-dependent rather than being based on laws of science.
Or put more simply, humans need Lily, for example, because if she doesn't announce spring coming, it won't.*
Other youkai that seem like unmitigated harm to humans could similarly be metaphysically essential to the proper operation of reality in Gensokyo.
*Edit: Come to think of it, that was the plot of Perfect Cherry Blossom, wasn't it? The power of spring was diverted into trying to resurrect the Saigyou Ayakashi, leaving Lily White unable to perform her ordained role until Reimu/Marisa/Sakuya put a stop to it.
Point is, Gensokyo needs youkai to exist. If humans don't need all forms of youkai to exist... well, that just proves that humans aren't the sole purpose of Gensokyo's existence. If it's not clear why humans need, say, Flandre or even Remilia to exist, the answer is "they're needed for something that has nothing to do with you humans".
It all started with the creation of the Great Boundary that divided Gensokyo and the rest of the world. As the outside world began to come up with new scientific explanations for all the phenomena in the world, the faith on youkai and gods began to falter. Yukari and a group of sages, seeing as this would lead to the eventual demise of the youkai and divine race, decided to create a safe haven for all the faith-dependant creatures by altering the Border of Common Sense. Gensokyo officially became the only place safe for youkai when the Hakurei Barrier was erected some centuries later, completely isolating Gensokyo from the Outside.
In other words, youkai need faith to survive, and that faith is provided by the humans that remained "trapped" in Gensokyo when the Hakurei Barrier appeared. Everything that has no sense in the human world, or is forgotten there, comes to existence in Gensokyo - this is called "spiriting away". However, without humans to keep the faith, youkai will die as well, hence why a balance is needed for both psrties. And the person who maintains this balance and the Hakurei Barrier is -you guessed it- the Hakurei Maiden.
Allaire said: Okay guys... Now, really. What the hell am I reading, huh?
Epic grimdark? Really?
Yes, epic grimdark.
But really, Gensokyo is not as "light" as you think it is.
Take the latest WaHH chapter for example. It's implied that when a youkai steps out of the line and actually goes to hurt a human, the villagers' youkai hunter (probably with Reimu as the leader) will hunt it down and kill it, permanently.
That much was always known, I think. If you don't play by the rules, Reimu reserves her right to set aside the non-lethal spellcards and danmaku, and end you for good.
My take on the role of youkai in Gensokyo is something like the situation in the movie KARAS: when the hero killed the rogue Kappa, water pressure in the city's water pipes dropped, as the spirit of water was killed. If you kill the youkai aspect of something in Gensokyo, you essentially cripple reality.
Mithiwithi said: *Edit: Come to think of it, that was the plot of Perfect Cherry Blossom, wasn't it? The power of spring was diverted into trying to resurrect the Saigyou Ayakashi, leaving Lily White unable to perform her ordained role until Reimu/Marisa/Sakuya put a stop to it.
I've always assumed that Lily White is just a fairy who goes announcing spring when it comes so she has nothing to do with spring itself.
Again, this is Touhou, so you can never be sure about stuff because there's always somebody out there who interprets the canon differently from you.
Mithiwithi said: Point is, Gensokyo needs youkai to exist. If humans don't need all forms of youkai to exist... well, that just proves that humans aren't the sole purpose of Gensokyo's existence.
Exactly. This fact got brought up in SoPM by the way. Gensokyo's existence has always been only for the youkai since the day it began.
So where exactly is it stated that youkai need faith from humans? Mamizou has survived for god knows long outside of Gensokyo, hidden away from humans, and held out just fine. Creating Gensokyo seemed more an issue of making a place where youkai aren't slaughtered by humans on the spot. And where gods can get faith, of course.
