Posted under General
Tag implications:
EDIT:
Taking back the confusing holding shoes -> shoes, per Sleth.
Updated by jxh2154
-1 to
holding shoes -> shoes
post #364984
Unless we want to create holding_* for every possible footwear in existence.
S1eth said:
-1 to
holding shoes -> shoes
post #364984
Unless we want to create holding_* for every possible footwear in existence.
Your example shows that the word "shoes" is inaccurate in holding shoes. (a tag with 103 posts)
I suggest aliasing it to holding footwear. (for comparison, the most popular tag with "footwear" in the name is cross-laced footwear)
Then, for tagging purposes, the search holding_footwear shoes would conveniently show actual "shoes" being held.
Updated
The word "shoe" is also used in shoe_dangle and single_shoe.
S1eth said:
The word "shoe" is also used in shoe_dangle and single_shoe.
Then, this, perhaps?
They could be either aliases or implications. Whatever, as long as they become accurate tags.
Since the word "shoe" means "any footwear, taggable shoes or not" in these tags, an implication would require further cleanup to remove a number of "single shoe" from "single footwear", and so on.
Meanwhile, I took back the problematic implication you -1'ed, Sleth.
Updated
More implications:
Is having a specific tag like holding_apple necessary, or could we make do with a more general holding_fruit tag and use it conjunction with specific fruit tags instead?
NWF_Renim said:
Is having a specific tag like holding_apple necessary, or could we make do with a more general holding_fruit tag and use it conjunction with specific fruit tags instead?
I stumbled onto that tag last night when looking for a tag for apple peeling, and I was thinking the exact same thing.
NWF_Renim said:
Is having a specific tag like holding_apple necessary, or could we make do with a more general holding_fruit tag and use it conjunction with specific fruit tags instead?
I'm leaning against your proposal, for two reasons:
1. We already have a more general "holding" tag: simply "holding". You can try searching for holding+apple. (or holding+orange, or holding+fruit, and so on)
2. I see holding_apple as a special case, because apples are often held, the tag has hundreds of posts (it only had 200+ posts hours ago, when the project was noticeably unfinished; now it has 700+ posts) and apple has 2600+ posts. Assuming the implications I requested are made, I suppose this system would help populating the underpopulated general holding tag, since, apparently, specific "holding" tags just tend to be relatively well-populated (even considering the tags in question where I didn'contribute much, such as holding hat; the ones I populate tend to be nearly flawless AFAIK). And the specific tags give room to interesting searches, such as (holding_apple grapes and holding_apple biting, maybe?), holding_apple eating and holding_apple holding_book. (and, honestly, I find -holding_apple holding apple and -holding_pokeball holding pokeball fascinating, but their results probably are too random to be useful to find specific images)
Updated
Danielx21 said:
2. I see holding_apple as a special case, because apples are often held, the tag has hundreds of posts (it only had 200+ posts hours ago, when the project was noticeably unfinished; now it has 700+ posts) and apple has 2600+ posts.
In a month, you'll use this exact same argument to justify the creation of
holding_gun, holding_sword, holding_broom, holding_gohei, etc.
S1eth said:
In a month, you'll use this exact same argument to justify the creation of
holding_gun, holding_sword, holding_broom, holding_gohei, etc.
Maybe, on a case-by-case basis. I like to use and (reasonably, I hope) populate multiple specific "holding*" tags, and I like to think there is no strict limit for how many such tags we have.
On the other hand, some holding* tags for groups of things are valuable, too. Even after I argued that holding_apple is better than holding_fruit for held apples, I appreciate that we have comprehensive holding_hat and holding_flower instead of, hypothetically, the absurdly specific holding_porkpie_hat and holding_dandelion.
Danielx21 said:
I suppose this system would help populating the underpopulated general holding tag
This is an interesting observation. For example, I populated holding card (with 1000+ posts now). The majority of these posts were not tagged holding at the moment.
Now, holding card is implicated to holding (with 4600+ posts now). So, I populated, at least, approximately, 1/5 of holding by only focusing on the cards.
Updated
Danielx21 said:
I'm leaning against your proposal, for two reasons:1. We already have a more general "holding" tag: simply "holding". You can try searching for holding+apple. (or holding+orange, or holding+fruit, and so on)
2. I see holding_apple as a special case, because apples are often held, the tag has hundreds of posts (it only had 200+ posts hours ago, when the project was noticeably unfinished; now it has 700+ posts) and apple has 2600+ posts.
It's not special, it's far from special. There is nothing unique about a person holding an apple, people hold all sorts of fruit and to give some sort of special privilege to apples over the others is silly. The point of having a tag like holding_fruit would be to be able to assist in finding any type of fruit being held, because of how general holding is, there are probably an extremely large combinations of reasons an image will be able to be tagged with any sort of fruit and not actually involve the character holding the fruit that is tagged, but holding something else.
Danielx21 said:
Assuming the implications I requested are made, I suppose this system would help populating the underpopulated general holding tag, since, apparently, specific "holding" tags just tend to be relatively well-populated (even considering the tags in question where I didn'contribute much, such as holding hat; the ones I populate tend to be nearly flawless AFAIK). And the specific tags give room to interesting searches, such as (holding_apple grapes and holding_apple biting, maybe?), holding_apple eating and holding_apple holding_book. (and, honestly, I find -holding_apple holding apple and -holding_pokeball holding pokeball fascinating, but their results probably are too random to be useful to find specific images)
Yes, all "interesting" searches that would be just as interesting involving a much more general tag like holding_fruit. I know we can lose some of these very specific searches like your suggested holding_apple grape search, but any results of that are still going to appear in a holding_fruit apple grape search.
As a side note, I'd like to ask you to stop putting in things like "the ones I populate tend to be nearly flawless AFAIK." Yes, we get it. You're quite proud of yourself, but it's kind of tiring seeing someone frequently pat themselves on the back and self compliment themselves. We can view for ourselves what you've accomplished and make our own judgements of them.
@NWF:
Maybe having holding_fruit is a good idea. It has its charm.
"[...] your suggested holding_apple grape search, but any results of that are still going to appear in a holding_fruit apple grape search" is a particularly good point.
On the other hand, it's clearer to me that holding_flower and holding_hat are valuable tags, because when I search for holding+hat and holding+flower, I see much noise (for example, people wearing hats while holding other things, instead of just holding hats). When I search for fruit+holding, I virtually only see people holding fruits.
You said:
"The point of having a tag like holding_fruit would be to be able to assist in finding any type of fruit being held, because of how general holding is, there are probably an extremely large combinations of reasons an image will be able to be tagged with any sort of fruit and not actually involve the character holding the fruit that is tagged, but holding something else."
Your point is not true yet, but probably it will be, after holding is better populated. Most images of holding_apple are not even tagged holding yet.
Apple, peach and strawberry are the most popular fruit tags, with 2300+ posts each. All the others have less than 1300 posts and a number of them merely have less than 100 posts. If having too many posts makes one fruit tag a "special case", then we would have these three candidates.
Assuming that, at the very least, all images of people holding fruits should be tagged holding, my next project in short-term is:
Populating holding_strawberry, as I'm curious to see what it would have in conjunction with other tags. If people decide to use only holding_fruit for all fruits together, (or just holding, why not) this step presumably can be done very easily with an alias or mass-edit. If people decide to keep holding_strawberry for whatever reason, then it and holding_apple can be implicated to holding or to holding_fruit (which then would be implicated to holding)
Do I really self-compliment that much? If you have some time, please let me see other examples of me doing that. I'd probably feel ashamed if you searched as far as one to four months ago, since at that period I got scolded by some Danbooru users wiser and more experienced than me, for my self-assured behaviour.
That said, it may be tiring to you, but "the ones I populate tend to be nearly flawless AFAIK." is a fact, pertinent enough to be said here, but not important enough that I'd assume someone noticed. You can still make your own judgement; be my guest.
Updated
(3 days later)
Did:
On second thought, after having some time to think about the opinions of people and review the practical results of having all these tags together, I agree with the current consensus that having only "holding_fruit" in conjunction with specific fruit tags is the best option. (as opposed to having "holding_apple" and whatnot)
Some "niche" searches are now available thanks to this diversity of tags, for example "holding_fruit apple -holding_apple", but I think their results are too few and negligible. (post #735008 is Sanae holding a banana while an apple is in the background, which can be found by holding_fruit apple or holding_fruit banana, anyway) It's also confusing having "holding_peach" but not "holding_lemon", while the latter would have too few members to be a "special case" as I described.
Now, following the original purpose of this thread of "holding" implications, I'd like these:
And, (if the consensus remains) please either delete these tags by mass-edit, or alias them to holding_fruit, or let me do the deletion by clicking 1000+ posts with the tag script, when I have the time:
Updated
*bumps*
This is the whole list of "holding" aliases/implications of this thread, for convenience. (minus the confusing "holding shoes -> shoes"; and the controversial specific fruit tags like "holding apple -> apple", which I have withdrawn)
create implication holding_bra -> holding
create implication holding_flower -> flower
create implication holding_flower -> holding
create implication holding_shoes -> holding
create implication holding_hat -> holding
create implication holding_hat -> hat
create implication holding_fishing_rod -> fishing_rod
create implication holding_fishing_rod -> holding
create implication holding_glasses -> holding
create implication holding_sunglasses -> holding
create implication holding_fruit -> holding
create implication holding_fruit -> fruit
create alias holding_apple -> holding_fruit
create alias holding_peach -> holding_fruit
create alias holding_strawberry -> holding_fruit
Sounds good
On a related note,is there a reason we don't have a holding_item or holding_object tag?
titaniachkt said:
Sounds goodOn a related note,is there a reason we don't have a holding_item or holding_object tag?
Apparently, holding almost always refer to items/objects already.
How would holding_object be more helpful, or even noticeably different, than holding alone?
(For example: A search for holding+fan returns held fans; a search for holding_object+fan would return the same results.)
Well,as opposed to something like holding_animal,holding_person
There are tags that do exist already however,but they're far from intuitive
Would you really use holding_object? (this question is effectively an extension of "How would holding_object be more helpful, or even noticeably different, than holding alone?")
I have reservations about this proposed tag:
