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Topic: Murakumo's hairstyle

Posted under General

user 525419

So..
Since I noticed that Murakumo_(kantai_collection) gets populated sometimes with low twintails, I wanted to ask if that's the correct tag to describe her tied sidelocks.
This tag is mostly tagged on comics uploaded by @NWSiaCB.

I am under the impression that this tag is misapplied in these cases, because low twintails still have to match the definition for twintails which I clearly do not see given:

I quote the wiki's crucial part, marked the even more crucial part bold:

ALL of the hair must be tied into two pigtails for this tag to count. If any hair outside of the bangs falls normally, it is two side up instead.

(The second part should indicate that also two side up doesn't fit.)

I consider this not given in post #2863620 or other in pool #9089. But maybe my way of looking at this is not correct and I might accuse unjustified NWS to mistag.

Updated by user 525419

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  • NWSiaCB

    The tags I'm putting on there are deliberate.

    At least in the ha_akabouzu drawings, the following tags apply to Murakumo's haircut:

    Very long hair, white hair, low twintails, tied hair, tress ribbon, hair ribbon, and blunt bangs. (Plus all tags implicated and the floating headgear, if you count that as part of the hairstyle.)

    As I stated in the private messages with Chiera, simply because a hairstyle has one hairstyle tag doesn't mean that other hairstyle tags don't apply. A good example is how Saratoga (Kantai Collection) has a side ponytail AND a regular ponytail, or how Kiyoshimo (Kantai Collection) has a bun and low twintails. Further, when he tried to say that only having one long sidelock doesn't make it a ponytail, I pointed out how the side ponytail tag exists, and there's pretty strong agreement that Shoebill has a side ponytail, in spite of that "bill" lock of hair being on the side like some kind of asymmetric sidelock.

    Murakumo's hair is a pair of low-tied tails, so they fit the criteria, even if she has another long shock of hair that comes down behind. Put another way, if she didn't have that non-tail hair behind her, everyone would agree that she has low twintails, like Patchouli's canon (no hair in back) hairstyle (which is, itself, severely undertagged).

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  • user 525419

    NWSiaCB said:

    Murakumo's hair is a pair of low-tied tails, so they fit the criteria, even if she has another long shock of hair that comes down behind. Put another way, if she didn't have that non-tail hair behind her, everyone would agree that she has low twintails, like Patchouli's canon (no hair in back) hairstyle (which is, itself, severely undertagged).

    But that's exactly why this doesn't fit for Murakumo.

    They do never fit the criteria, simply because her hair is not seperated into two parts.

    Tress ribbon does exactly the trick, though: It is used when only strands of hair is tied together.

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  • kittey

    The twintails wiki states that all hair (bangs excluded) must be tied into the twintails and explicitly mentions two side up as not qualifying. Murakumo’s hairstyle has most of the hair not tied at all, so how does it qualify? Maybe we need two side down? :P

    Honestly, I think it’s adequately covered by sidelocks + tress_ribbon and twintails does not apply. If I searched for twintails, this wouldn’t be what I’d expect.

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  • iridescent slime

    I seriously don't see how anyone can look at this character's hairstyle and think it resembles twintails, low or otherwise. It's a completely different look.

    Also, thanks for pointing out how shoebill (kemono friends) is trashing up the ponytail tag. Does nobody even know what a ponytail is?

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  • Unbreakable

    I have to agree with Chiera and kittey here, those are NOT twintails.

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  • NWSiaCB

    Chiera said:

    If that's the concensus then i'll remove the remaining not fitting low twintails from murakumo_(kantai_collection) low_twintails.

    Consensus means getting everyone to reach an agreement, not finding a couple people to back you up in the first hour or so.

    Chiera said:

    But that's exactly why this doesn't fit for Murakumo.

    They do never fit the criteria, simply because her hair is not seperated into two parts.

    Tress ribbon does exactly the trick, though: It is used when only strands of hair is tied together.

    Once again, that's irrelevant to whether or not she has any sort of -tail. As previously mentioned, Saratoga can have a ponytail and a sidetail because they are two distinct parts of her hairstyle, and having different hairstyle tags don't preclude having others. Pathcouli Knowledge has low twintails canonically (whether people actually tag it or not) with nothing in the back because it's all pulled to the front. (And sometimes it's tied into twin braids as well...) Meanwhile, a lot of artists throw another set of long hair on Patchouli while keeping the front of her hairstyle the same. There's zero reason to stop tagging the tails that exist just because another hair element was added.

    Tress ribbon describes the ribbon, not the hairstyle. There needs to be another tag for the hairstyle.

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  • fossilnix

    I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here, but doesn't Murakumo's hairstyle kind of resemble Hakurei Reimu's, only with a tress ribbon instead of hair tubes? IMO neither is low twintails. Maybe there should be a tied_sidelocks tag?

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  • user 525419

    NWSiaCB said:

    Consensus means getting everyone to reach an agreement, not finding a couple people to back you up in the first hour or so.

    You are obviously wrong, though.

    I have really no idea why you are coming up with Patchy, she's not the topic here.
    And about tress ribbon + sideloks: It really desribes more or less that sidelocks can be tied. They are still a strand of hair and therefore perfectly fitting the tress ribbon tag: Tress ribbon is not only a ribbon tag, but it also describes where the hair is tied together.
    Looking at tress_ribbon sidelocks does not only show a lot of Murakumo, but also a lot of images where the sidelocks are tied (post #2810267 is a good example outside Murakumo.

    I quote kittey:

    Murakumo’s hairstyle has most of the hair not tied at all, so how does it qualify?

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  • NWSiaCB

    Chiera said:

    You are obviously wrong, though.

    I have really no idea why you are coming up with Patchy, she's not the topic here.
    And about tress ribbon + sideloks: It really desribes more or less that sidelocks can be tied. They are still a strand of hair and therefore perfectly fitting the tress ribbon tag: Tress ribbon is not only a ribbon tag, but it also describes where the hair is tied together.
    Looking at tress_ribbon sidelocks does not only show a lot of Murakumo, but also a lot of images where the sidelocks are tied (post #2810267 is a good example outside Murakumo.

    I quote kittey:

    I talk about Patchy because it shows a flaw in your reasoning to which you seem to only be able to argue with sheer denialism. "Shut up, you're WRONG!" isn't an argument, and indicates the weakness of your own position, honestly. Again, you're failing to deal with a fundamental aspect of tags, which is that more than one can apply to the same thing. Whether Patchy has a different style in the back doesn't change how you tag what's going on in the front, just like Saratoga obviously doesn't have twintails, she has a side ponytail AND a ponytail.

    And no, tress ribbon is a tag that describes a ribbon, just like hair ribbon is a ribbon that happens to be in the hair. You can't say that "people shouldn't tag ponytail because hair ribbon covers it".

    Saying that a tag is currently being used in such and such a way is also not a particularly good way since, as this thread demonstrates rather well, there's no universal set of guidelines to anything on Danbooru. Pointing out side ponytail is being used for Shoebill just gets a declaration by one arbitrary voice in the crowd that it just means that tag needs someone else to push their arbitrary will on it. I could say that there's plenty of precendent for low twintails being used as a tag on Murakumo if you weren't the one forcing it not to be on there, and when you're the one pushing tress ribbon tags on Murakumo, that argumentum ad populum loses whatever weight remains.

    For that matter, I remember the sidelocks tag being payot until just a year or so ago, and being rather severely underpopulated, but now, apparently, it needs to be applied to 90% of all girls' hairstyles, making it just as useless due to its being necessary to overapply it to meaninglessness while also being underutilized to being unreliable at that.

    iridescent_slime said:

    I seriously don't see how anyone can look at this character's hairstyle and think it resembles twintails, low or otherwise. It's a completely different look.

    Also, thanks for pointing out how shoebill (kemono friends) is trashing up the ponytail tag. Does nobody even know what a ponytail is?

    In that case, are we going to need a new tag just for that kind of hairstyle? Because it's not like there's any other tag I know of to describe it.

    I should also point out that low twintails are quite different looking from regular twintails, and swept over the shoulder, they look exactly like what Murakumo has.

    fossilnix said:

    I hope I'm not speaking out of turn here, but doesn't Murakumo's hairstyle kind of resemble Hakurei Reimu's, only with a tress ribbon instead of hair tubes? IMO neither is low twintails. Maybe there should be a tied_sidelocks tag?

    The thing is, Reimu's hair is (at least normally) much shorter and a smaller shock of hair. Murakumo's front hairstyle are much longer tresses that take up more of the hair, putting them into low twintails territory (again, closer to Patchy).

    Updated by NWSiaCB

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  • Slysheen

    In my mind Murakumo's tress ribbons aren't at the origin of the hair separating it into a tail-like hairstyle. They're mostly falling naturally with ties to keep them from getting in the way and that is the distinction between anything_tails and sidelocks for me.

    Sidelocks and tress_ribbons cover her particular hairstyle perfectly fine and the addition of an extra tag that offers no additional information is in my mind unnecessary.

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  • user 525419

    NWSiaCB said:

    I talk about Patchy because it shows a flaw in your reasoning to which you seem to only be able to argue with sheer denialism. "Shut up, you're WRONG!" isn't an argument, and indicates the weakness of your own position, honestly. Again, you're failing to deal with a fundamental aspect of tags, which is that more than one can apply to the same thing. Whether Patchy has a different style in the back doesn't change how you tag what's going on in the front, just like Saratoga obviously doesn't have twintails, she has a side ponytail AND a ponytail.

    Would you finally answer the question that kittey was posing and I have quoted? You seem to avoid it.

    And I still don't know why you bring up Patchy...she has absolutely nothing to do with twintails tagging: patchouli_knowledge twintails has 23 pages à 20 post (something around 400 posts). She proves nothing in the twintails "debate". Actually, post #2858326 are exactly Murakumo's hairstyle, too. Those aren't twintails, either.
    And the position for twintails doesn't matter, since it's an umbrella term. Twintails can be pulled to the front, that's not the problem but also nowhere mentioned in the wiki. Read the excerpt from the wiki I've quoted above. There you see what's crucial. That's an empty argument you have here, which is why I don't get why you mention it for your argumentation.

    Also could you start giving examples, please:

    I should also point out that low twintails are quite different looking from regular twintails, and swept over the shoulder, they look exactly like what Murakumo has.

    Without an example, this is pretty much useless.

    And why are you bringing up Danbooru's guidelines? Are you saying that the current twintails wikis are lacking something? Are you saying because you see nothing set in stone that you can redefine low twintails by using it differently from what the wiki is describing?

    Also and lastly: I don't say that you are wrong because I feel like it. I say it because the usage is against the wikis and there are arguments for it. So it's not an argument that you are wrong...

    Updated by user 525419

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  • user 441999

    It's possible to make Murakumo's hair look vaguely similar to low twintails, but much less so than making regular twintails look like a side ponytail. One style being possible to make look like another style does not make it be that other style, though (and certainly not in those cases where it isn't made to look like that).

    Murakumo's hair is not low twintails, and post #2846963 is no more low twintails because of what the same hairstyle looks like in the second (and only the second) panel of post #2861516 than post #2781911 is side ponytail because of what the same hairstyle looks like in post #2767879 - which is to say it is not at all.

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  • iridescent slime

    NWSiaCB said:

    I should also point out that low twintails are quite different looking from regular twintails, and swept over the shoulder, they look exactly like what Murakumo has.

    Except they don't. Low twintails swept over the shoulder look like this or this or this. They look nothing like Murakumo's hairstyle, where the bulk of the hair remains loose and untied. Her hair is closer to being a hime cut than it is to being low twintails (it's neither, but still).

    Put another way, if she didn't have that non-tail hair behind her, everyone would agree that she has low twintails...

    But she does have that non-tail hair behind her, so we don't. This is why it's so perplexing that anyone would use this tag for something like post #2855156, where it's clear that there's more hair than just her sidelocks.

    Updated by iridescent slime

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  • keonas

    I think a big part of the confusion came from most people not knowing about the tress ribbon tag.
    i mean, even if it has a very high post count (because of Touhou), it's literally not common english.
    Also, even when it was used, it was more than a bit misused. Like many i thought it meant the style of having the sidelocks tied by a ribbon/string, not that it only referred to the ribbon type.

    Otherwise, that's definitely the tag we're looking for and, all the twintails images should be retagged, unless it's an alternate style.

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  • Slysheen

    keonas said:

    I think a big part of the confusion came from most people not knowing about the tress ribbon tag.
    i mean, even if it has a very high post count (because of Touhou), it's literally not common english.
    Also, even when it was used, it was more than a bit misused. Like many i thought it meant the style of having the sidelocks tied by a ribbon/string, not that it only referred to the ribbon type.

    Otherwise, that's definitely the tag we're looking for and, all the twintails images should be retagged, unless it's an alternate style.

    The tag might warrant another topic as I thought literally until you said otherwise that, that definition was the right one.

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  • KyteM

    This is pretty open and shut. The twintails page explicitly defines them as requiring all hair to be collected into the pigtails to count. Murakumo's hair obviously doesn't do that. Therefore, it can't be twintails, low or otherwise.

    If NWSiaCB wishes to disagree, he can always push for a redefinition of the tag.

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