Tag Alias: pigtails → twintails

Elfenus said:
That doesn't sound like what you said in forum #13371:

I like that everything be tagged, and that includes hair color, hair length, and eye color for everything I post. However, just because everything should be tagged, not everything should be in one tag.

The ideal solution would be to be able to attach tags to tags, i.e. applying the traits to a given character so they can be searched for on the same person. That's not going to happen without a complete Danbooru rewrite though.

It simply doesn't make sense to make a bunch of combo tags. If we do (maybe the precedent set by black_thighhighs makes it valid), we need to also keep the general tags, (i.e. short_hair, and twintails) along with the specific (short_twintails) otherwise people searching for something will be disenfranchised.

I don't neccessarily disagree with you that the hairstyles are different, it's just that things will get messy with the solution proposed. I'm also not entirely sure that the difference here is any more important than length+color.

Edit: note that I was wasn't arguing in favor of black_thighhighs in that other thread, I was advocating people fully using the tags that do exist.

So far we can say that a specific tag is needed for the style.
Maybe not pigtails due the problem it represents, but short_twintails might solve it (altough it sounds odd). If no one has any other option (or objection)I suggest we take short_twintails.

shinjidude said: ... we need to keep the general tags along with the specific...

That's why I suggested an implication at the beggining of this thread and

• short_twintails -> twintails

sounds to me like a good option.

I'm a bit confused (as usual ^_~). We're not saying that pigtails and twintails must be braided, right? So e.g. Akita Neru has one (and only one) pigtail.

Then side_ponytail seems superfluous. Though a ponytail is certainly not braided, I think everyone agrees on.

paninaro said:
We're not saying that pigtails and twintails must be braided, right?

No. We are not saying that.

So e.g. Akita Neru has one (and only one) pigtail.

She has a side ponytail.

Then side_ponytail seems superfluous. Though a ponytail is certainly not braided, I think everyone agrees on.

You definetly are confused. The mains subject here are not braids, but "short_twintails"

Elfenus said:
The mains subject here are not braids, but "short_twintails"

Ah, that I understood. But the question about braids had been touched upon also. Though maybe that's a discussion for another topic, then.

Ditto to evazion's first post. It's OK if the term pigtails is changed, but there's a point in the short/long separation. Aliasing pigtails to twintails would mean losing a lot of information.

Elfenus said:
So far we can say that a specific tag is needed for the style.
Maybe not pigtails due the problem it represents, but short_twintails might solve it (altough it sounds odd). If no one has any other option (or objection)I suggest we take short_twintails.

That's why I suggested an implication at the beggining of this thread and

• short_twintails -> twintails

sounds to me like a good option.

This is acceptable.

I shouldn't propose silly tags as a joke, people might start to actually want to use them...

Fine, you can start using short_twintails. We need some sort of guideline however, so I'd propose that if they don't hang down past the shoulders, then they're "short". If they're longer than shoulder length, they're just twintails. Agree/disagree? That seems to be the criteria used in the pigtails post, anyway.

And yes, I've added the implication because they should all still be tagged twintails regardless of whether or not we distinguish length.

I (quickly) went through pigtails and removed half a dozen or so that were too long or were twin braids. The rest of what's in there is probably good for a mass edit, or perhaps alias because people might keep trying to use pigtails. Is there any frequently repeated hairstyle in the pigtails tag currently that would need to be separated out before they're retagged short_twintails?

jxh2154 said:
I'd propose that if they don't hang down past the shoulders, then they're "short". If they're longer than shoulder length, they're just twintails. Agree/disagree?

Agree.

jxh2154 said:
Is there any frequently repeated hairstyle in the pigtails tag currently that would need to be separated out before they're retagged short_twintails?

Doesn't look like it. I'd agree to alias pigtails to short_twintails, since someone just uploaded a picture and tagged it that, proving that the tag will probably still be used.

Any other thoughts? I don't want more people bitching because they felt they weren't properly consulted yet.

I'm not going to bitch, simply because short_twintails is easier to define, but they're called pigtails for god's sake.

jhx, if you're getting stressed over this, you're looking at it the wrong way. This is a forum, not an issue tracker: its natural purpose is to discuss things, not to lock threads as fast as possible.

I usually don't lock these threads at all, even when they're done. Please stop trying to constantly misrepresent me, it's getting pretty annoying. Nor was I looking to lock this particular thread either - I'm asking for input before I make the changes, not so I can close the thread down. Otherwise, we just sit here talking about it (or sometimes not talking about it) but not actually coming to a conclusion and *doing* it. This may not be an "issue tracker" per se, but the point of most threads in this forum is indeed to fix tags and reach decisions on policy, so actual action can be taken.

Things only get locked when they've gone completely off track, have devolved into simply making fun of someone, or when it's just a user complaining they can't find loli or get an invite or upload guro or source a full version of their myspace avatar. Since you're referring probably to the monster thread, I locked that because any further conversation about singulars or plurals is much better served by having its own thread (not that it's necessary to discuss it at this point but that's another matter).

Search exists for a reason, to find information that cannot be grabbed from memory, in a sticky, or the most recently active threads. If someone wants to bring up forum discussions on the overall pluralization policy, or japanese vs english naming policy, or moderation policy etc., they are much better served by having (and much more likely to find, dedicated threads to the topic come up in their results. That's the logic behind it.

Please don't try to imply I don't let people discuss things when *most* threads in this forum jump all over the place and address multiple topics, and are allowed to do so freely.

I'm in favor of the use of short_twintails. Pigtail(s) seems to not be all that well defined. Just looking around google the modern usage seems to be mostly short bunches, but most definitions in dictionaries would indicate a braid is a defining characteristic (which makes sense since it'd look like a pigtail). Much like any language the meaning of words can get corrupted and slowly change over time, which would seem to be the case here.

A question though, if pigtails becomes an alias for short_twintails, what about pigtail? If it is singular it would not fall under twintails and if a tagger goes by the dictionary definition it would fall under the single_braid tag. Currently the images under pigtail seem to mostly fall under side_ponytail.

NWF_Renim said: A question though, if pigtails becomes an alias for short_twintails, what about pigtail?

I wonder if we don't already have another tag in use for that style already? There were only 13 images in it to begin with, 11 after I removed two that weren't single (retagged pigtails for now, so they get brought along with any change we make to that tag).

Hmm, ironically I think I'm the first person to actually use short_twintails, despite my reluctance to it. I assumed the alias was already in place.

I also think we went the right way with the implications, going to twintails, but not short_hair, since some long_haired characters have "pigtails". But we need to remember to add short_hair where it's relevant.

Anyway since it seems to resolve the initial issues, and was accepted by jxh, I'm good with this. I'd just warn against using it too much as precedent lest we end up with tons and tons of over-specific tags.

NWF_Renim said:
Just looking around google the modern usage seems to be mostly short bunches...

I just did the same search, and pigtails seems to me that it's well defined in terms of "what people expect from such word".
I know that pigtails and twintails are the same thing in definition, however in terms of style and "common knowledge" (even if it's due a word corruption) pigtails is clearly something like post #97744 and post #381040. Yes, it is true that in such google search you can also find images with twin_braids, but we already have twin_braids clearly defined so I don't see any problem there.
Twintails and pigtails are two different words, maybe not in definition, but still they are diferent. This opens the posibility of keeping pigtails to tag the so much mentioned style, and use twintails on the already popular style used by characters like Hatsune_miku.
Finally, if keeping pigtails represents such a "pain in the brain" because it keeps you confused, then I suggest we get this thing over and do the pertinent alias and implication.

Edit: I want to know, what you guys think of the wiki that exist currently for pigtails?

Shinjidude said: I'd just warn against using it too much as precedent lest we end up with tons and tons of over-specific tags.

That's what I was initially resisting too. I figure it'll be put to better use than a number of other things that have been forced through though. There are, at least, a very large number of images that could be put in this tag, which makes it easier to accept.

Elfenus said:
then I suggest we get this thing over and do the pertinent alias and implication.

Yes. It's pretty clear that pigtails cannot exist as a tag without causing an annoying amount of confusion, so let's do this thing already.

Elfenus said:
I want to know, what you guys think of the wiki that exist currently for pigtails?

I think it describes short twintails. Hence why I created this thread in the first place.

Kayako said: I think it describes short twintails. Hence why I created this thread in the first place.

Yeah it looks pretty good. Just swap 'pigtails' with 'short_twintails' and it can be copied over wholesale, I think.

Anyway, aliased pigtails to short_twintails.

Edit: Added the note about shoulder length being the guide.