[Feature Idea] Highlighting individual notes for translation check

I doubt it could be implemented but here's an idea: having a "check translation" checkbox in the Edit Note menu, which will highlight the note with yellow border (or some other indicators) for translation check (this would indirectly render the "check translation" checkbox in Add Note redundant).

The current method of assigning check_translation tag is, frankly, useless.

For one, a different translator wouldn't know which speech bubbles are you unsure of and hence have to check the entire page (especially cumbersome for long pages). Said translator may also end up editing notes that the original translator is confident of, simply because there's no way currently to indicate that.

Then we have to consider translators that wouldn't mind fixing others' translations but didn't know the original translator is seeking second opinion. This could happen when you're feeling lazy and simply read the pool without reading the underlying Japanese line, which is common. Usually you'll just accept whatever that's written there unless it's logically flawed or grammatically wrong.

It could also happen when you're reading recent translations but didn't notice the check_translation tag. Because why would anyone check that for every page unless they feel something's off with the current translation? I believe this is the prime cause for check_translation tag stagnating for months in a page; people simply don't realize anyone's asking for second opinion because it feels right when you're reading it. Do take note that a translation 'feeling' right doesn't mean it's correct, it simply meant the translator is good in English.

But of course, all this wouldn't be a problem if translators would just add a check translation whenever they tick that bloody Check Translation box ಠ_ಠ

Hmm... the above would require a change to the notes model, but that shouldn't be too difficult....

In addition to the above, it could help to also have a translator notes section independent of the note body which would only be visible in the note edit mode. This would help with check translations since not every translator knows of (or may forget), and even if they do, some may choose not to use it since it disrupts the look of the note.One implementation idea for the above would be to have two <textarea>'s next to each other, with the translation going on the left side and the translator notes going on the right. If there is any text in the translator notes box when it is saved, then it will automatically be considered a check translation note. The only way to clear this status is to clear the translator notes box and resave. This would also prevent any dangling translator notes that never get removed because someone forgets.Thoughts?

BrokenEagle98 said:

Hmm... the above would require a change to the notes model, but that shouldn't be too difficult....

In addition to the above, it could help to also have a translator notes section independent of the note body which would only be visible in the note edit mode. This would help with check translations since not every translator knows of (or may forget), and even if they do, some may choose not to use it since it disrupts the look of the note.One implementation idea for the above would be to have two <textarea>'s next to each other, with the translation going on the left side and the translator notes going on the right. If there is any text in the translator notes box when it is saved, then it will automatically be considered a check translation note. The only way to clear this status is to clear the translator notes box and resave. This would also prevent any dangling translator notes that never get removed because someone forgets.Thoughts?

I'm not sure what's the best way to show the new text area, but I like the general idea of having a different text area.

Often people will tag check_translation without leaving a or comment on why they're not sure of a translation, which doesn't help the next translator that checks on their translations. It also makes it difficult as sometimes, you check through the whole page and think there's no error but there's a check_translation there.Just to be sure, will there be highlighting for individual notes? I believe this is the most important part as it either discourages subpar translations, or at least informs readers that it's partly a guesslation.Edit: I personally think having the check translation text area below the standard text area, shown after ticking on check translation checkbox, would be better. Having an extra box to the right all the time even though you'll (ideally) only use it once in a long while seems counter-intuitive.

Vezral said:

Just to be sure, will there be highlighting for individual notes? I believe this is the most important part as it either discourages subpar translations, or at least informs readers that it's partly a guesslation.

I agree. My initial thought for the highlighting algorithm is that it would check the value of the translator notes and if it's not empty, then it would highlight the note.

However, a checkbox would require an additional value in the note model... most likely a boolean. Not that that's a bad thing, but it is what it is. Given that scheme, it would highlight the note given the value of that boolean.

Checkboxes can be bound with change events, so that could be used to hide/unhide the text area like you suggested.

However, what about the translator notes...? Should those get deleted if the value is unchecked and the note saved...?

BrokenEagle98 said:

However, what about the translator notes...? Should those get deleted if the value is unchecked and the note saved...?

I think it's best to keep it simple and not store any translator notes once the value is unchecked.

Keeping the translator notes could act as a discussion and learning platform, but that would require a different kind of highlighting so that others know there were prior discussion on a particular note and can learn from there. However, I believe that would be far beyond what danbooru's supposed to be.

At the end of the day, the aim is not to be 100% translation error free as most translators, I believe, aren't native speakers and are simply contributing while learning Japanese at the same time. The aim is to offer speedy translation check and some form of check-and-balance whereby someone can just highlight it, offer their opinion, and have a third party decide (I mean, the original translator can just remove the check_translation, but that's where the unspoken code of honour kicks in, I guess).

Plus, it might be used to start an edit war instead of a more proper discussion via PMs.

I'm not sure how well will this feature be received, but if it's favorable enough, then perhaps in the future there could be a subtab under the Notes tab that shows all check_translation and its translator notes.

Why not simply post a comment, or better yet, make a dedicated megathread for translation help? Even with being able to highlight individual notes, you're still waiting for another translator to a) eventually stumble across your post, hopefully soon (but in reality probably much later, if ever) and b) read your mind on what you were having problems with. And if someone does fix something, you won't know unless you continuously check back on all your check translation posts. This sounds very roundabout compared to simply asking for a translation check on the forum.

A translator notes field would solve the "what the hell does this guy want me to check?" problem, but I'm not clear on why posting a regular comment wouldn't suffice for this purpose. A regular comment would be more visible and I'd expect more likely to get a response.

As for the problem of highlighting notes, I think that could be solved by having a note #1234 syntax to link to individual notes. Clicking this link would open the post (if not already open) and scroll the note into view. That way one could leave "translation check on XYZ in note #123" comments, which I'd think would call attention to the note just as well.

^I agree that functionality-wise, the forum and comments in addition to a note # could be used to facilitate the main idea behind this thread. However, I wonder about the unseen non-technical barriers using the current setup.

For instance, how many people will translate a note, yet are uneager to leave a comment behind, or post in the forums?

Opinion

For one thing, a comment or forum post is a permanent record, especially if somebody quotes you. Due to that, the barrier for leaving something behind is much higher, and a translator would have to weigh how unsure they were on the note versus the cost of leaving a comment behind.

Additionally, I've noticed that leaving translation notes in the comments disrupts the organic creation of comments that might otherwise occur on the picture. People see you talking "official business", and so they (might) decide to not comment.

Speaking just for myself, there have been a plethora of times where I wouldn't leave a comment behind just for a translation check. In fact, I have only ever left a comment behind if there were portions that I couldn't translate, i.e. partially translated.

However if there was an official mechanism in place for such notes, that could potentially lower the barrier to people actually leaving behind translator notes in such cases.

Final

However, I'm just one translator. I wonder what others think?

evazion said:

Why not simply post a comment, or better yet, make a dedicated megathread for translation help? Even with being able to highlight individual notes, you're still waiting for another translator to a) eventually stumble across your post, hopefully soon (but in reality probably much later, if ever) and b) read your mind on what you were having problems with. And if someone does fix something, you won't know unless you continuously check back on all your check translation posts. This sounds very roundabout compared to simply asking for a translation check on the forum.

This is just my observation, but people rarely post a comment, or even a note, whenever they leave a check_translation behind. I believe trying to inculcate a culture of good practices is an uphill battle that, for all intent and purpose, will never bear fruit.So my first argument would be that forcing translators to leave a comment behind is a far better idea than hoping that they will. Plus, danbooru and the forum is essentially two separate entity; I wouldn't visit the forum unless I've issues to raise. That means you could've a megathread but it would simply go unnoticed to translators that visit danbooru daily but never the forum.Then we have to take into account translators that are translating a pool and leaving check_translation left and right. No one would want to leave comments page after page or make a super long post in a megathread. I wouldn't say their actions are justified, but it's undeniable that they're the workhorse that got stuff translated in the site. And they're leagues better than translators that, knowing full well they're guesslating a sentence, still opt to leave it as translated rather than check_translation or just leave it partially translated.All in all, the habit of leaving a translation comment, for whatever reason, is simply not a thing in danbooru.---On a different note, my idea was that by having highlighting, you'll have higher exposure when you add a note (particularly for popular ongoing pool) or at least have someone eventually stumble and fix it rather than what we have now: check_translation stagnating indefinitely. I've fixed notes without realizing there's a check_translation tag, and even see others fixed a note I pointed out without removing the check_translation tag, probably because they're unsure if there are other possible mistakes.Regarding your b) point, there simply isn't any translator that genuinely use check_translation because they care. After all, we have check_translation for months old posts without anyone bumping for check translation. It's really more as a way of saying "Hey, I'm not very sure of my translation but this is the best you're getting". At the very least, readers can tell which notes are possibly wrong by the highlighting and translators can (lazily) help with fixing possibly wrong notes when they eventually stumble upon them.

These are my reservations:

• I don't know that many translators will use it. If translators won't use notes or comments, what reason is there to believe they'll use this? I suspect people would keep using check translation, either out of habit or because marking each individual note takes more effort than adding a tag.

• I'm not convinced it will help much with getting translations checked. I think it'd likely end up stagnating the same way check translation has. Just look at partially translated: it doesn't have the same problem of translators not noticing it or knowing what to check, but it has a huge backlog just the same. That's no surprise; any time the system is "mark it and hope someone eventually looks at it", a backlog is inevitable.

• I think regular users will be confused and annoyed by random notes being highlighted for no apparent reason. I can picture it now: "why are notes a different color sometimes??" "It's for translators." "i don't care, change it back". Yes, there could be a setting to disable it, but that still forces every non-translator to manually disable it.

At the end of the day, the only way to reduce the backlog is for translators to make a conscious effort to clear it. We did it for tagme, so it's not unthinkable. But in the absence of that, I don't see much else that will put a dent in it.

evazion said:

These are my reservations:

• I don't know that many translators will use it. If translators won't use notes or comments, what reason is there to believe they'll use this? I suspect people would keep using check translation, either out of habit or because marking each individual note takes more effort than adding a tag.

My original thought was that by removing the existing check_translation checkbox besides the partially_translated checkbox, translators would either be forced to tag individual notes or go back to manually add check_translation tag.

I presume translators would be lazy enough (to not manually add tag) that they would either use it or simply not add a check_translation tag.

Thing is, adding a check_translation tag without specifying the problematic note is as good as not adding one to begin with. I strongly doubt anyone actually checks for check_translation tag before they fix anything.

evazion said:

I'm not convinced it will help much with getting translations checked. I think it'd likely end up stagnating the same way check translation has. Just look at partially translated: it doesn't have the same problem of translators not noticing it or knowing what to check, but it has a huge backlog just the same. That's no surprise; any time the system is "mark it and hope someone eventually looks at it", a backlog is inevitable.

At the end of the day, the only way to reduce the backlog is for translators to make a conscious effort to clear it. We did it for tagme, so it's not unthinkable. But in the absence of that, I don't see much else that will put a dent in it.

I agree this will not put a dent to the backlog. After all, it's all down to luck as to whether a translator would come across a pool where his assistance is required.

However, the current system for check_translation is simply pointless without highlighting. When it comes to partially_translated, a translator could make his decision as to whether to help or not. But the same can't be said for check_translation. Often, you simply read through a pool without realizing there are posts that require translation check.

Implementing this would, if nothing else, gives exposure to problematic notes and assist passing by translators by pinpointing the exact problematic note. No one likes to go through all 10+ notes in a page just to have a guess.

evazion said:
I think regular users will be confused and annoyed by random notes being highlighted for no apparent reason. I can picture it now: "why are notes a different color sometimes??" "It's for translators." "i don't care, change it back". Yes, there could be a setting to disable it, but that still forces every non-translator to manually disable it.

Like how the Notes tab got changed for no reason and 3 months later I still can't figure out why I would ever use it :D?
/rant

Well, rant aside, I suggest this partly so that readers would be informed whenever a translator's guesslating.

Based on the check_translation wiki, I presume the check_translation is originally there to help translators have others check on possible mistranslation due to lack of knowledge in foreign cultures, geographical locations, scientific terms, in-game references, etc. They might get the phrase / terms wrong, but it's still grammatically consistent with the Japanese's line.

But I notice check_translation is being used for cases where the translator isn't sure at all and ends up introducing dubious sentences.

(as reference, I got this highlighting idea after going through the two notes below)
Note one
Note two

Thing is, we have a weird system now where translators are knowingly adding notes they aren't sure of instead of leaving it partially translated as recommended.

From those notes, I thought it would be useful to readers if there's some indicator to tell you to take a particular note with a grain of salt.

---

On a separate topic, you can see in the second note that the check_translation's still there even after OMGkillitwithfire fixed the note. I'm not sure if he's leaving it there because he's seeking for a third opinion or he simply forgot. This is where tying check_translation tag to individual notes would help. If someone fixed the note and it's still unticked, then you're 99% sure he's seeking a third opinion instead of simply forgetting to remove the tag.

Since we can edit note with entering the Add Note view, it's surprisingly easy to forget updating the tags.