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Topic: The Great Fate Character Retagging Project

Posted under Tags

KyteM

As people may have noticed, Servant character tags are kind of a huge mess right now. The increasing cross-pollination of Fate works, the reduced relevant of class names relative to true names, the explosion in Servants per class with the advent of FGO, the huge difference in popularity and awareness of FGO vs the original works and Danbooru's own relatively sloppy methodology in creating tags for newly minted characters means the current character tags are less useful than they should be and often get in the way of efficient tagging.
Moreover, Servants are almost entirely public-domain characters, which means their names and tags have to be shared with other properties, and not all tags play nicely. (Not to mention class names) lancer, saber, archer, bedivere and gilgamesh, for example.

I pointed this out back in forum #119888, but nothing happened. Probably because it's a pretty big undertaking.
So I finally worked up the effort to do it myself!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ow7niOnxX67PHb2IirhZWAStBLE1pHHz6HU8hRQ9su0/edit?usp=sharing
Linked is a spreadsheet of every character tag present in posts tagged only with fate_(series) and fate*/rojiura_satsuki_:_chapter_heroine_sanctuary/koha-ace copyright tags, along with proposals for renaming. (The data was taking using the danbooru BigQuery)

Some items I am unsure about, so I left them with question marks. I'd appreciate commentary. Once it's finalized I can take the spreadsheet and generate a bulk update request for the aliases and mass updates (including cosplay tags). Then I can do some manual work on some problematic but thankfully small-scale tags (such as Jekyll and Hyde sharing tag).

With regards implications:

  • Confusing variant character implications. Undo them and have all variants point to the original instead of having a chain of implications such as Heroine X Alter -> Heroine X -> Saber or Lancer Alter -> Saber Alter -> Saber or Jeanne Alter Lily -> Jeanne Alter -> Jeanne. (it's always the seibafaces)
    This also cuts down on the number of character tags some works get. Imagine somebody cosplaying as MHXA or JASL. (For example, post #2627585, Lancer Alter cosplaying as MHXA for a grand total of 5 character tags on a single person)
    • Comb though the list for variants without proper implications. (If we keep implications)
    • Figure out a way to distinguish the originals because right now you need to do silly searches such as caster_(fate/extra) -tamamo_cat_(fate/grand_order) and that also causes false negatives if both are in the same picture. Filtering out all Seiba variants from Seiba Prime overruns the tag limit for Gold users and below.
  • Alternatively, nuke the implications. Don't like this idea. I do like it now.
Other concerns:
  • The dangerous_beast outfit has gained a life of its own as a meme outfit and it's probably not appropriate to have it count as shielder cosplay anymore, and instead make it a general tag. (There's precedent here, see dress_of_heaven and shroud_of_martin)
  • Illya, Rin and Luvia have tags for their magical girl forms, but Miyu doesn't. Create one. (miyu_edelfelt_(magical_girl) for parity, I suppose).
    • On a similar vein as the parent point, since Nero got tags for her Bride and Venus forms, Tamamo's tophatted CCC version should be tagged. Perhaps the JK version too, Saber Venus only has 7 posts last I counted.[/s]
      It's done, for the most part.

Updated by KyteM

  • ID: 126876
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  • EB

    KyteM said:

    • Illya, Rin and Luvia have tags for their magical girl forms, but Miyu doesn't. Create one. (miyu_edelfelt_(magical_girl) for parity, I suppose).

    This I've always thought should be done, and I've only never made a tag myself because I didn't know if there was some kind of canon name to her magical girl form or not.

    • Figure out a way to distinguish the originals because right now you need to do silly searches such as caster_(fate/extra) -tamamo_cat_(fate/grand_order) and that also causes false negatives if both are in the same picture. Filtering out all Seiba variants from Seiba Prime overruns the tag limit for Gold users and below.
      • Alternatively, nuke the implications. Don't like this idea.

    I honestly think character->character implications are just a plain bad idea in general. Characters that don't look that much like one another (such as Artoria Pendragon Lancer and Saber) should definitely not be implicated. See for example the decision not to implicate Ro-500 in topic #11348, and more recently the general discussion in topic #13004.

  • ID: 126882
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  • Kikimaru

    This is going to be a massive project, but I agree with the general ideas; the real names being spoilers don't matter too much in the grand scheme of things anymore.

  • ID: 126895
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  • OniTea

    KyteM said:

    • The dangerous_beast outfit has gained a life of its own as a meme outfit and it's probably not appropriate to have it count as shielder cosplay anymore, and instead make it a general tag. (There's precedent here, see dress_of_heaven and shroud_of_martin)

    I pointed it out somewhere on forum, get only one reply and it was against it. (Well still +1 from me)

    From first look:
    lancer -> cu_chulainn_(fate) and cu_chulainn_(fate/grand_order) -> cu_chulainn_(fate) this two shouldn't be merged for sure, maybe cu_chilainn_(caster)_(fate) for FGO variation?
    For Vlad III (extra) and (apocrypha) looks beter for my taste.
    Better leave Kotomine Shirou as it right now. (And this is actually still can count as spoiler)
    Mashu Kyrielight or Mash Kyrielight? Second one looks like new official, especially after her valentine CE new version.
    Archer really needs a discussion, but Emiya (fate) looks fine at least for now. Emiya_(alter)_(fate) soon?
    Sadly know nothing about Strange Fake.
    Others are fine, but I'll look though it again then I finally have some time.

    Also, that about saberface tag? (so same as saber tag right now +Nero, Okita and others)

  • ID: 126928
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  • EB

    OniTea said:

    Mashu Kyrielight or Mash Kyrielight? Second one looks like new official, especially after her valentine CE new version.

    "Mash Kyrielight" is also used in the official English subs for the Fate/Grand Order anime, and is what the official Japanese anime site says too, so the spellings are not at odds there as it is with Olga Marie (topic #13607).

  • ID: 126934
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  • willsolvit

    Does this project include making wiki pages for these characters? To make it clear what to tag because this is going to get confusing for posters.

  • ID: 126937
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  • KyteM

    That was my mistake with Caster Cu, too many in a row turned my brain off.

    The thing with Kotomine Shirou is that a lot more people now will now him through FGO, compared to Apocrypha. On the other hand, the anime's coming soon so the spoiler argument is very relevant. I suppose it can be revisited later?

    Yeah Mash is canon now, it's what's used in stuff like FGO mats and the now-fixed CE. I used Mashu out of habit.

    Emiya Alter is supposed to come at some point, so who knows.

    Saberface tag is a nice idea. The others don't really need a tag, with standarized names a wildcard search such as tamamo*(fate) would do the trick.

    I actually thought of Excalibur Morgan but then forgot. dark_rhongomyniad could probably use a different tag too, prolly rhongomyniad_(alter). That one can be done manually, there's not many pics.

    willsolvit said:

    Does this project include making wiki pages for these characters? To make it clear what to tag because this is going to get confusing for posters.

    That's a massive undertaking but yeah it should happen too.
    That reminds me, do wiki pages migrate with aliases and mass updates?

  • ID: 126938
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  • Taisa

    Speaking of seibafaces... Can we have a Saberface tag to search for them in bulk? Not sure if that's too much of a niche interest or not.

  • ID: 126987
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  • KyteM

    WakuWaku said:

    Regarding the proposed tags for Li Shuwen, the one from Extra and the one from FGO are both "Young Li". Old Li looks like this http://i.imgur.com/LJl8Ehg.jpg

    Right. I remember wondering what was the difference between Extra and FGO versions, appearance wise. I knew there was supposed to be an Old Li, but wasn't sure how it fit in.
    Then, Li (Extra) and Li (FGO) should both become Li Shuwen (Fate). Pretty sure Old Li should show up eventually (as Assassin, just to muddle things further), that one can the disambiguator.

  • ID: 127023
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  • KyteM

    I keep getting the order mixed up with Nobu.

    Why keep MHX as is? Despite the name, she's still an artoria. To be fair, I suppose adding a saberface tag renders the searchability argument moot. I'm curious about your reasoning there.

    Which brings another point, actually. Saberface, strictly speaking, covers 10 artorias, 3 neros, okita, mordred and 3 jeannes. That makes the tag much more dilute than it ought to be, if all you want is to search for artorias. (Which would be its primary purpose from what has been said)
    So should it cover all saberfaces or just artorias? If the latter, making it an umbrella character tag (dunno, artoria pendragon (all)?) would be more appropriate, IMO.

  • ID: 127028
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  • OniTea

    KyteM said:

    Why keep MHX as is? Despite the name, she's still an artoria. To be fair, I suppose adding a saberface tag renders the searchability argument moot. I'm curious about your reasoning there.

    Which brings another point, actually. Saberface, strictly speaking, covers 10 artorias, 3 neros, okita, mordred and 3 jeannes. That makes the tag much more dilute than it ought to be, if all you want is to search for artorias. (Which would be its primary purpose from what has been said)
    So should it cover all saberfaces or just artorias? If the latter, making it an umbrella character tag (dunno, artoria pendragon (all)?) would be more appropriate, IMO.

    Maybe because she is a joke, it was just a suggestion anyway. I'll not insist on this.

    About saberface, yes all of them as you listed, but if we keep Saber as it is right now (all artorias imply saber), no saberface tag needed since you can get same result with less that 6 tag search. I started it with EB suggestion since I support it to the point.

  • ID: 127033
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  • KyteM

    So the biggest concern to figure out: Nuke implications: Y/N?

    e: and if "some", which ones?

    Updated by KyteM

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  • Kikimaru

    KyteM said:

    So the biggest concern to figure out: Nuke implications: Y/N?

    +1 to nuking some implications

    Saber Alter is tricksy though.

  • ID: 127115
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  • willsolvit

    If we're going ahead with this project some outlines on how it will play out would also be helpful.

  • ID: 127179
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  • KyteM

    Mostly 'cause Fate-original characters don't have _(fate) suffix unless they need disambiguation like BB or Fou. She's not a public domain character that will be sharing her name much, either.

    willsolvit said:

    If we're going ahead with this project some outlines on how it will play out would also be helpful.

    Uh, let's see...

    • Make a bulk update request to alias the character tags and mass update the cosplay tags. I'm not 100% sure how the system works under the hood but I think this shouldn't leave phantom tags caused by the cosplay automatic implication system. (See forum #126933)
    • Garden some tags such as Jekyll/Hyde manually.
      • Make a BUR for saberface tag if it's decided upon.
    • Go through every tag wiki and edit/create pages such that they include at the very least the copyright. (btw can you access the wiki via API?)
      • Seiyuu and artist would be nice too, but that's a tertiary concern.
    • Do whatever is decided wrt character implications.
      • If they're kept, comb through the list and check for orphaned implications.
      • If they're nuked, make a BUR to remove them. This would also require some significant gardening, although it can be alleviated with careful use of mass updates.
      • If something else's decided, ???

    Kikimaru said:

    +1 to nuking some implications

    Saber Alter is tricksy though.

    Mind elaborating here?

    Updated by KyteM

  • ID: 127188
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  • James-Sarrowtail

    KyteM said:

    As people may have noticed, Servant character tags are kind of a huge mess right now. The increasing cross-pollination of Fate works, the reduced relevant of class names relative to true names, the explosion in Servants per class with the advent of FGO, the huge difference in popularity and awareness of FGO vs the original works and Danbooru's own relatively sloppy methodology in creating tags for newly minted characters means the current character tags are less useful than they should be and often get in the way of efficient tagging.
    Moreover, Servants are almost entirely public-domain characters, which means their names and tags have to be shared with other properties, and not all tags play nicely. (Not to mention class names) lancer, saber, archer, bedivere and gilgamesh, for example.

    I pointed this out back in forum #119888, but nothing happened. Probably because it's a pretty big undertaking.
    So I finally worked up the effort to do it myself!

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ow7niOnxX67PHb2IirhZWAStBLE1pHHz6HU8hRQ9su0/edit?usp=sharing
    Linked is a spreadsheet of every character tag present in posts tagged only with fate_(series) and fate*/rojiura_satsuki_:_chapter_heroine_sanctuary/koha-ace copyright tags, along with proposals for renaming. (The data was taking using the danbooru BigQuery)

    Some items I am unsure about, so I left them with question marks. I'd appreciate commentary. Once it's finalized I can take the spreadsheet and generate a bulk update request for the aliases and mass updates (including cosplay tags). Then I can do some manual work on some problematic but thankfully small-scale tags (such as Jekyll and Hyde sharing tag).

    Ok, yeah... that has been something that is over due for a while now since just about everything that surrounds tagging with fate content is something of a mess. That could take a while, if ever since with FGO you are going to get new characters to add to that mix which only adds more complexity to the matrix.

    Other concerns:

    • The dangerous_beast outfit has gained a life of its own as a meme outfit and it's probably not appropriate to have it count as shielder cosplay anymore, and instead make it a general tag. (There's precedent here, see dress_of_heaven and shroud_of_martin)

    I have no objection to that.

    • Illya, Rin and Luvia have tags for their magical girl forms, but Miyu doesn't. Create one. (miyu_edelfelt_(magical_girl) for parity, I suppose).

    There is a reason for that, and honestly it is the fact that Miyu_Edelfelt is Miyu Edelfelt. What I mean by that is, miyu is relatively self-contained. So far she has been a character that is almost completely defined by and for fate/kaleid_liner_prisma_illya while has yet to appear in any other part of the franchise. A result of that is that most art around her is equally as limited to the manga/anime she appeared in. I was honestly expecting her to show in fate/grand_order especially during the fate/kaleid_liner_prisma_illya event but that didn't happen, so she remains limited in scope.

    I don't see the need to separate Miyu as a MG as a tag if only because there isn't much of a need to differentiate her as a MG from. I feel that there is just too little imagery of both.

      • On a similar vein as the parent point, since Nero got tags for her Bride and Venus forms, Tamamo's tophatted CCC version should be tagged. Perhaps the JK version too, Saber Venus only has 7 posts last I counted.

    There are likely quite a few tags that could be merged with that thinking in mind. matou_sakura and imaginary_around come to mind

  • ID: 127295
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